00:52:57 Lee Lammert: https://wiki.sluug.org/bock_upgrade_debian_10_-_11#procedure 00:56:48 moose: what is bock? 00:57:12 tony.c: the stluug web / mail server 00:58:03 Gary Meyer: wiki.sluug.org/step_1 01:03:17 moose: why change ip address? 01:03:50 moose: oh 01:10:16 Sean T.: The new Top Gun movie was a really good, especially for a remake. 01:14:06 Tyler R: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3231564/ 01:31:48 Jeff Grigg: "Microsoft is EVIL!!!!!!!!" 01:32:07 Grant T.: The Microsoft of 2024 is less evil than the Microsoft of 1994 01:32:55 Tyler R: Or are they are better at hiding it from the normies... 01:33:35 Jeff Grigg: So we have to pay to be *off* the ballot?!? πŸ˜† 01:34:39 Jeff Grigg: ?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! 01:34:44 Craig Buchek: Reacted to "The Microsoft of 202..." with πŸ’― 01:35:11 Jeff Grigg: "LLM is EVIL." 01:38:58 Craig Buchek: So now I get to reboot my speaker and microphone. 😒 01:40:48 tony.c: Happy Pie Day 01:40:58 tony.c: Pi* 01:42:08 Jeff Grigg: The "B.S.-ing" is The Most Important Part!!! ❣️ 01:45:08 Robert Levitt: Pi Day is tomorrow - 3/14. 01:45:18 Grant T.: What are this weeks winning lottery numbers? 01:45:49 Craig Buchek: I still get the SLUUG announcement emails. 01:46:11 Jeff Grigg: Us *OLD GUYS* need to talk about *HISTORY*!!! 01:46:20 Jeff Grigg: πŸ™„ 01:46:30 Jeff Grigg: ❣️ 01:46:42 Craig Buchek: My other camera is showing what I'll be looking at if I get bored. 01:47:11 Jeff Grigg: … like Hollerith Punch Cards!!! 😱 01:47:13 Craig Buchek: Reacted to "My other camera is s..." with πŸ˜‚ 01:47:22 Lee Lammert: So, .. do you NOT want to receive Announce? 01:47:26 Jeff Grigg: Toastmasters "Table Topics"!!!! 01:47:44 Craig Buchek: Replying to "I still get the SLUU..." No. I'm saying that's why I'm here today. 01:48:30 Jeff Grigg: (I was born in 1962. I'm >>>OLD<<<. πŸ˜† ) 01:49:21 Craig Buchek: Also, the Mother of All Demos came up In conversation last week at a tech conference social event that I crashed. 01:49:37 tony.c: internet wasn't even mainstream in '89 01:49:40 Sean T.: Reacted to "My other camera is s..." with ❀️ 01:50:21 Carey Schug/USA:IL:Chicago area: oh, well recent events 01:50:28 Jeff Grigg: "Floating Head!!!!" … like a "Beholder." SCARY!!!! [Actually, it seems like a *GREAT* thing, honestly!] 01:50:36 Craig Buchek: Replying to "internet wasn't even..." The Internet should probably get its own talk. πŸ˜‚ 01:51:03 Jeff Grigg: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Beholder 01:54:34 Craig Buchek: That's a very wide tie. 01:55:36 Craig Buchek: TIL that Engelbart was inspired by Vannevar Bush's As We May Think. All 12 pages are here: https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/227181.227186 01:55:54 Maury Pepper: I was there. 01:56:21 Craig Buchek: The complete MoAD video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJDv-zdhzMY 01:57:53 Craig Buchek: Realtime document collaboration is HARD. 02:01:17 Jeff Grigg: (The head of R&D in EDS called it a "rat." πŸ˜† ) 02:03:07 Craig Buchek: I used this DEC mouse in 1989-1992 that had 2 "lobed" spinners instead of a ball. https://www.ebay.com/itm/305284427317 02:03:13 Grant T.: I always thought the different sounds were associated with his action, clicks. 02:05:01 Craig Buchek: IPv0? 02:05:22 Grant T.: Progenitor to Network Control Protocol 02:05:35 tony.c: Isn't that Apple now? 02:05:59 Sean T.: I sent the abstract for next week's talk to STEERCOM. I gotta log off, we have a PROD deployment tonight. May the K8s operate in our favor. πŸ˜† 02:07:17 Craig Buchek: Software, Services, and now SaaS. 02:07:50 Jeff Grigg: 🍰 02:07:57 Jeff Grigg: "There is no cake." 02:08:31 Craig Buchek: It's been a while since I used a DEC. I miss them and their big walls of manuals. 02:09:06 Jeff Grigg: Reacted to "It's been a while si..." with ❣️ 02:09:30 Grant T.: Was that editor β€œed(1)” the standard editor? 02:10:59 Craig Buchek: Swami Satchidinanda also comes up in the Tiger King sequel about Doc Antle. 02:11:30 tony.c: There was one porta-potty for every 833 people. 02:12:15 Jeff Grigg: Reacted to "Was that editor β€œed(..." with ❣️ 02:12:26 Jeff Grigg: Reacted to "There was one porta-..." with πŸ˜† 02:12:51 Craig Buchek: Reacted to "There was one porta-..." with 😞 02:13:52 Craig Buchek: That's not where UCSB is.... 02:14:18 Grant T.: +10 for there where wizards stay up late 02:15:33 Carey Schug/USA:IL:Chicago area: you could run the 11/20 with just what is visible now 02:16:46 Craig Buchek: The PiDP-11 is a modern replica of the PDP-11/70: https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11 02:19:38 Craig Buchek: So he was at WUSTL about as long as Xerox PARC. 02:20:26 Craig Buchek: Book rec by Scott about PARC: Dealers of Lightning 02:21:19 Craig Buchek: CPU bit progression: 4 -> 8 -> 16 -> 32 -> 64 02:21:37 Jeff Grigg: The 4004 could run a calculator!!! 02:21:55 Craig Buchek: 1 million times faster over 53 years. 02:22:42 Craig Buchek: UIUC 02:23:30 Jeff Grigg: (I've *LIVED* in Chicago!) 02:27:20 Craig Buchek: Because it's efficient for the computer. 02:27:34 Craig Buchek: Forth is easy to implement, and it's basically a Forth. 02:28:43 Craig Buchek: I'm not sure how UNIX v1 commands were written. Possibly still in BCPL. Likely individual executables on tape/disk. The reason for /bin vs /usr/bin was that / and /usr were on separate devices. 02:28:48 Jeff Grigg: Reacted to "Forth is easy to imp..." with ❣️ 02:29:11 Grant T.: Reacted to "I'm not sure how UNI..." with ❀️ 02:29:21 Craig Buchek: $3500 was a good downpayment on a house in 1971. 02:29:35 tony.c: No nostalgia from the peanut gallery 02:30:07 Jeff Grigg: "K&R C" is such a museum piece!!! 02:30:22 Jeff Grigg: "Pong" was Such A Thing in my history!!! 02:30:53 Jeff Grigg: "Pong" implemented in TTL, *NOT* CPU/computer!!! 02:32:05 Jeff Grigg: (Saint Louis is just "Not Important." 😈 ) 02:32:53 Craig Buchek: Replying to "(Saint Louis is just..." WUSTL was a big Internet hub in the late 1980s. 02:33:29 Craig Buchek: Anyone know what RML in Florida and GWC in Nebraska? are? 02:34:46 Craig Buchek: Token-based was probably better. But much harder to set up. 02:36:05 Jeff Grigg: "64KB of RAM?!? Who would ever need to use ALL OF THAT?!?!?" 02:36:08 Craig Buchek: The Alto should have been the first successful business PC. 02:36:15 Craig Buchek: Paper! 02:36:15 Jeff Grigg: Reacted to ""64KB of RAM?!? Who..." with πŸ˜† 02:36:28 Craig Buchek: Paper was in Xerox's DNA. 02:36:31 Grant T.: Reacted to "The Alto should have..." with ❀️ 02:36:46 Craig Buchek: Or not. 🀷🏻 02:37:51 Jeff Grigg: "WIMP!!!" 02:38:09 Jeff Grigg: ( I ❀️ Smalltalk. ) 02:38:55 Jeff Grigg: "Unix" !!!!!!!!!!!! 02:39:07 Craig Buchek: Wait, isn't that the same pic from the UNIX v1 slide? 02:39:17 Craig Buchek: Reacted to "( I ❀️ Smalltalk. )" with ❀️ 02:39:29 Grant T.: Replying to "Wait, isn't that the..." Yes 02:39:43 Jeff Grigg: "BSD Unix" 02:40:05 Jeff Grigg: (I remember teletypes.) 02:40:27 Craig Buchek: "Two of the most famous products of Berkeley are LSD and Unix. I don’t think that is a coincidence." 02:40:44 Jeff Grigg: Is that GUI Smalltalk? 02:41:07 Grant T.: Replying to ""Two of the most fam..." I heard that as β€œBSD” and β€œLSD” 02:41:14 Jeff Grigg: 8080s were great!!! 02:41:24 Jeff Grigg: Kind of a "lobotomized" 8086. 02:41:43 Jeff Grigg: CPU design that is A CURSE. 😈 02:42:12 Craig Buchek: The 8080 was so good that there were several good knock-offs. Most famously the Zilog Z80. 02:42:49 Craig Buchek: Replying to "The 8080 was so good..." Which might come up when we get to CP/M. 02:43:30 tony.c: Sounds like a sex ad 02:44:40 Jeff Grigg: Replying to "The 8080 was so good..." I totally lived that 8080 to Z80 and TurboDOS thing! 02:44:58 Craig Buchek: TIL that Simonyi worked at PARC. 02:45:11 Craig Buchek: MS Word 02:45:13 Robert Levitt: Word 02:45:57 Jeff Grigg: "Word." 02:46:03 Jeff Grigg: Reacted to ""Word."" with πŸ˜† 02:46:20 Craig Buchek: Simonyi is also one of the rich people that paid Russia $millions to go to space β€” twice. 02:47:58 Jeff Grigg: I *implemented* CP/M on raw hardware! 02:48:48 Jeff Grigg: (Cloned and "replaced" by MS-DOS.) 02:49:17 Jeff Grigg: I would totally have invested in "Intergalactic Digital Research" !!! 02:49:43 Craig Buchek: ❀️ Intergalactic. I wonder if the name is available today. 02:50:15 Jeff Grigg: Reacted to "❀️ Intergalactic. I ..." with ❣️ 02:50:37 Craig Buchek: I hate modes too! 02:51:45 Jeff Grigg: (Yea; but I do "Shift-Click" to select a range. 😱 ) 02:52:58 tony.c: seems like it would be inevitible that these things would be invented 02:52:58 Jeff Grigg: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975 02:53:25 Jeff Grigg: Reacted to "seems like it would ..." with πŸ‘ 02:53:51 Craig Buchek: Reacted to "seems like it would ..." with πŸ‘ 02:54:08 tony.c: clone ibm 02:54:39 Grant T.: Replying to "clone ibm " IBM Personal Computer wasn’t a think until the early β€˜80s, probably ’81. 02:54:47 Jeff Grigg: (8080 Intel CPU) 02:54:57 Grant T.: BASIC 02:55:24 Craig Buchek: Replying to "BASIC" In ROM! 02:55:30 Jeff Grigg: BASIC is such a CURSE. I wish we had done FORTH first!!!!!!!!!!! 02:55:36 Craig Buchek: Replying to "BASIC" Well, eventually. Not on the Altair. 02:55:38 Grant T.: Replying to "BASIC" @Craig Buchek nope, paper tape 02:55:44 Craig Buchek: Reacted to "BASIC is such a CURS..." with πŸ’― 02:55:46 Grant T.: Replying to "BASIC" And piracy 02:56:17 tony.c: I wish my college was teaching C instead of stupid pascal 02:56:25 Jeff Grigg: BASIC is a CURSE. 02:56:45 Jeff Grigg: Reacted to "BASIC is a CURSE." with πŸ’’ 02:56:57 Robert Levitt: I learned BASIC in high school. I didn’t think it was bad. 02:57:22 Craig Buchek: Replying to "BASIC is such a CURS..." I think that would have been the best choice for the future, and probably then. Less code to write the language interpreter. Better support for subroutines. More mathematically oriented. 02:58:35 Jeff Grigg: (I still wish it had been FORTH.) 02:58:53 Craig Buchek: Bah, my friend wrote a lightning detector without lightning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIpu6fsJ8sE 02:59:23 Craig Buchek: Some star. 03:00:24 Craig Buchek: 😱 03:00:36 Jeff Grigg: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Altair_system 03:00:41 Jeff Grigg: Reacted to "😱" with 😱 03:02:10 Jeff Grigg: "The Fool On The Hill" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGEX_7IqaC4&ab_channel=TheBeatles 03:03:45 Phil B: M.I.T.S. = Model Intrumentation and Telemetry Systems 03:03:58 Grant T.: Reacted to "M.I.T.S. = Model Int..." with ❀️ 03:06:16 Craig Buchek: When I failed at soldering, I had to take my computer to Phil Bunch to fix for me.... (~1988) 03:06:27 Jeff Grigg: Reacted to "When I failed at sol..." with πŸ˜† 03:06:33 tony.c: I'm on their side 03:07:10 Craig Buchek: Gates and Allen sure did move a lot. 03:07:47 tony.c: Was Microsoft named after their sex life? 03:07:49 Jeff Grigg: ("Streaming." WHAT?!?!?) 03:07:58 Grant T.: Software for Micro computers 03:08:06 Grant T.: Micro (computer) Soft(ware) 03:08:39 Jeff Grigg: (BYTE was COOL.) 03:08:44 Craig Buchek: Reacted to "(BYTE was COOL.)" with πŸ’― 03:09:07 Craig Buchek: Interesting. Chown was in v1. Chgrp came in v6. So there were probably no groups until then. 03:09:09 Jeff Grigg: (1976 is VERY Important to me!) 03:09:57 Jeff Grigg: ("Open source" could never work, of course.) 03:09:57 Craig Buchek: Replying to "(1976 is VERY Import..." Because you love bicentennial coins? 03:10:22 Craig Buchek: Replying to "(1976 is VERY Import..." I especially love the half-dollar and silver dollar. 03:10:29 Robert Levitt: Bull. 03:11:05 Jeff Grigg: Reacted to "Bull." with πŸ„ 03:11:25 Grant T.: Replying to "Bull." ? 03:11:48 Craig Buchek: Replying to "Bull." I think he was replying to the comment about Open Source never working. 03:12:03 Grant T.: Replying to "Bull." Ah 03:12:22 Craig Buchek: That board does look really nice. 03:12:27 Jeff Grigg: Reacted to "I think he was reply..." with πŸ˜† 03:12:41 Jeff Grigg: Reacted to "That board does look..." with ❀️ 03:14:02 Craig Buchek: Too bad the Motorola 6800 was way more expensive than the 6502. 03:14:03 Grant T.: Does anyone have any idea what resources he may have used at H.P. to do the board layout? 03:14:41 Craig Buchek: Replying to "Does anyone have any..." And why did HP not sue Apple for using their resources? 03:14:58 Grant T.: Replying to "Does anyone have any..." H.P. wasn’t interested in it. They gave him permission to do his own thing. 03:15:10 Craig Buchek: Replying to "Does anyone have any..." Interesting. 03:15:23 Grant T.: Reacted to "Interesting." with πŸ˜‰ 03:16:01 Jeff Grigg: Reacted to "Does anyone have any..." with 😱 03:17:26 Robert Levitt: My dad bought and built a Southwest Technical Products 6800 computer and thought it was wonderful. He also wanted to learn in machine language instead of a high level language like BASIC. He attempted to teach me how to program in machine language and I complained to my mother in a very loud voice that he showed me what he was doing six times and taught me nothing. 03:20:11 Craig Buchek: Oh, so that breadboard area would be like the RPi's GPIO. 03:20:21 Jeff Grigg: The Zilog Z-80 was *amazing* for CP/M-80 machines! 03:20:44 Craig Buchek: WTF? 03:21:23 Jeff Grigg: The Zilog Z-80 is upward compatible (100%!) from the Intel 8080 CPU. 03:21:50 Gary Meyer: The story of Ron Wayne selling his Apple ownership is on the Apple calendar ao April 12. 03:22:57 Craig Buchek: πŸ‘ŽπŸ» 03:23:09 Jeff Grigg: ("vi" is, technically, a "mode" of "ex.") 03:23:19 Grant T.: Reacted to "("vi" is, technicall..." with βž• 03:23:22 Craig Buchek: Reacted to "("vi" is, technicall..." with πŸ‘†πŸ» 03:23:23 Jeff Grigg: ("vi" is short for "visual.") 03:23:30 Grant T.: Reacted to "("vi" is short for "..." with βž• 03:23:54 Jeff Grigg: >>> MODES <<< !!!!!!!!!!!! 03:23:55 Craig Buchek: Replying to "("vi" is short for "..." Ah yes, vi is a visual version of ex. 03:24:11 Grant T.: Reacted to "Ah yes, vi is a visu..." with βž• 03:24:13 Jeff Grigg: ESC-ESC-ESC-ESC-ESC-ESC-ESC-ESC-ESC-ESC-ESC-ESC-ESC πŸ˜† 03:24:31 Jeff Grigg: (I'm a gvim user today.) 03:24:32 Grant T.: Replying to "ESC-ESC-ESC-ESC-ESC-..." You only need to press Escape three times. 03:24:33 Craig Buchek: I've been using vi since I started using UNIX β€” because I never figured out how to quit it. 03:24:51 Jeff Grigg: Reacted to "I've been using vi s..." with πŸ˜† 03:25:26 Jeff Grigg: Reacted to "You only need to pre..." with πŸ™„ 03:25:34 Jeff Grigg: Reacted to "I've been using vi s..." with ❀️ 03:25:38 Craig Buchek: Fun story: The vim emulator on Emacs is probably the best version of vi and Emacs. 03:28:40 Craig Buchek: I can't say I've heard many positive Bill Gates stories like that. Good to know there's at least 1. 03:28:43 Jeff Grigg: PET, Apple, Trash. πŸ˜† 03:29:28 Phil B: P.E.T. = Personal Electronic Transactor 03:29:58 Jeff Grigg: Left 2 = 6502. TRS-80 is a Z80 (but doesn't run CP/M). 03:30:25 Craig Buchek: Replying to "P.E.T. = Personal El..." @Phil B what were your first few computers? 03:30:39 Jeff Grigg: (the "Pet" was a Really Well Designed computer and Operating System.) 03:33:03 Craig Buchek: I've felt that same way before giving a conference talk. But afterwards, I'm full of adrenaline. 03:33:57 Carey Schug/USA:IL:Chicago area: perswonel electronic transactor 03:34:16 Jeff Grigg: πŸ• 03:34:29 Craig Buchek: Commodore eventually bought MOStek, who made the 6502. 03:34:46 Jeff Grigg: (Yea; , … Pet Rocks. πŸ™„ ) 03:37:23 Jeff Grigg: (I remember the Atari 2600! ❀️ ) 03:37:35 Craig Buchek: I was in an ACE Hardware a month ago, and they had a World's Smallest Pet Rock for sale. I took a picture. 03:37:46 Carey Schug/USA:IL:Chicago area: waard and randy 03:38:06 Craig Buchek: 53k 03:38:15 Carey Schug/USA:IL:Chicago area: later 600 baud with pmmi using same tones 03:38:18 Craig Buchek: 64k minus some for "reasons" 03:38:31 Craig Buchek: Reacted to "64k minus some for "..." with 😱 03:38:42 Craig Buchek: Reacted to "64k minus some for "..." with πŸ˜† 03:38:55 Grant T.: Bit robbing 03:39:26 Jeff Grigg: I had a 56k modem. … and watched images incrementally load. (Vidoes? Are You Kidding?!?) 03:40:05 Craig Buchek: The telecom at my house wouldn't sell me service last year, because they could only get 3 Mb/s. 03:40:38 tony.c: yeah but you only ever going to need 640k 03:40:43 Jeff Grigg: The 8086 is such a perverse architecture. πŸ˜• 03:41:28 Gary Meyer: On Feb 6 on SLUUG calendar...1st BBS in 1976 03:41:34 Craig Buchek: Replying to "The 8086 is such a p..." I looked at 6502 asm recently, and was shocked how awful it was. 03:41:44 Jeff Grigg: (I used WordStar for a long time, …) 03:41:55 Robert Levitt: Ah yes…Wordstar. 03:42:00 Craig Buchek: Replying to "The 8086 is such a p..." The 68000 was amazing though. I could translate C to 68000 in my head. 03:42:21 Jeff Grigg: (I was forced into Word, and Microsoft Office, by my employer.) 03:43:01 Jeff Grigg: Personally, I switched to Perfect Office. But my employer forced me to Microsoft Office (and paid for it). 03:44:45 Carey Schug/USA:IL:Chicago area: would a sequel to this be available? or a prequel? 03:45:00 Craig Buchek: $3.8 billion = 15.2 billion quarters 03:45:17 Jeff Grigg: Reacted to "$3.8 billion = 15.2 ..." with 😱 03:46:03 Craig Buchek: Only the old lady looks normal. 03:46:08 tony.c: helter skelter 03:46:24 Jeff Grigg: Reacted to "helter skelter " with ❀️ 03:46:27 Craig Buchek: Replying to "Only the old lady lo..." Probably the secretary 03:47:05 Jeff Grigg: They could afford something much more attractive than a van (to capture children, or whatever) 03:48:42 Craig Buchek: ioctl - boo!!!!! 03:49:11 Craig Buchek: ioctl horribly broke the "everything is a file" paradigm 03:50:41 Jeff Grigg: Reacted to "ioctl horribly broke..." with βž• 03:51:23 Craig Buchek: XR headsets are looking for a killer app right now. So it's still an open field. 03:52:11 Craig Buchek: If VisiCalc did dependencies, that's pretty impressive on an 8-bit CPU. 03:55:23 Carey Schug/USA:IL:Chicago area: Sennheiser open headphone predatred sony Walkman 11 years 03:58:45 Craig Buchek: Smalltalk! 03:58:55 Jeff Grigg: Reacted to "Smalltalk!" with ❀️ 04:01:18 Jeff Grigg: "comp.risks" !!! 04:01:39 Craig Buchek: Reacted to ""comp.risks" !!!" with ❓ 04:02:10 Craig Buchek: I loved Usenet news. 😒 04:02:16 Grant T.: I have multiple Usenet servers. 04:02:48 Craig Buchek: Summary of 1980 to today: Hardware got cheaper, smaller, and faster by millions or billions of times. Currently a "smart-phone". Thanks primarily to material science. Software goes through Open Source. Microsoft and Apple. 04:02:57 Craig Buchek: Reacted to "Summary of 1980 to t..." with πŸ˜† 04:03:20 Jeff Grigg: Oh, some of us *LIVED* most of this stuff!!! 04:03:23 Jeff Grigg: Reacted to "Oh, some of us *LIVE..." with ❀️ 04:03:39 Craig Buchek: Someone should write a mashup of Scott's talk and "We Didn't Start The Fire"! 04:04:55 Carey Schug/USA:IL:Chicago area: I bought a trs80 board but did all expansion on s-100 04:06:21 Grant T.: Very good talk Scott. I have to drop. 04:07:08 Carey Schug/USA:IL:Chicago area: i am here, can't turn on video 04:08:23 Carey Schug/USA:IL:Chicago area: prequel and sequel talks? 04:10:53 Carey Schug/USA:IL:Chicago area: i started in 1965 on an IBM 1620 04:11:25 Carey Schug/USA:IL:Chicago area: does ti still make calculators? 04:12:23 Craig Buchek: Replying to "does ti still make c..." I think so. At least a few years ago. I think they're on ARM now. Still kind of expensive. 04:14:35 Carey Schug/USA:IL:Chicago area: but I thought apple paid to license the interface but ms did not 04:15:53 Wayne/S: Thank you, Scott and all. Great blast from the past. Next time... 04:16:36 Craig Buchek: A couple months ago, I read all of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_6809, which gets into detail about the competing CPUs and market forces that got us to where we are today. 04:18:54 Craig Buchek: Replying to "A couple months ago,..." Specifically, 8-bit CPUs. 04:19:38 Carey Schug/USA:IL:Chicago area: there is a basic cartridge for the 2600 04:23:46 Craig Buchek: As You May Thin by Vannevar Bush, 1945. https://archive.org/details/as-we-may-think/mode/2up