We need to turn on the recording. How to hell do you turn recording on
Very carefully.
Oh, I hit the record button
Well.
Recording is on
Start Meeting Gary
Welcome everyone to the St. Louis Linux Users group meeting for oh, is it November seventeenth?
Already 2022 tonight. We are. We have a presentation on Bp.
Butterfs.
Rfs. The butterfly system. I think that's what they call it by yeah, by the Fs.
Zoom sucks
A relatively recent addition to the calendar. This coming Saturday morning, the mid and High School robotics, teams, first Robotics, Ftc.
Whatever you wanna prefer to it as they're having a a local tournaments.
They're actually. There's a number of local tournaments throughout Missouri in Kansas.
Our member, Don Alice, he and his team, the Del Mar Maker space people.
They'll be down on so Lutheran Church down on Sappington.
That'll be kind of the South St. Louis tournament, so other ones you listed.
If you look on the calendar, you can look for whatever location you like, so
And they're at different times. On Saturday, the one that don't at starts at 8.
Go, is still noon. There are other ones which you know.
Start late in the morning and go through the afternoon
That. No? Yeah, no announcement but Bob Henson, I'm seeing that on the thing.
That's you've got a microphone it's it's taking sound.
Can you try? Control a is, see if that will toggle with your sound.
Off, and on.
Apparently that's not doing any good.
And the first half hour so is from well, from 6 o'clock to 6 30.
We generally try to help people get their sound working and screen sharing and things like that
But and then the meetings. This meeting starts at I don't 6 36, 45 whatever the presentation maybe somewhere in there.
I don't know. It varies. Got a little bit of a free, free format
Yeah, usually we stick some Q. And a up front. If anybody got any pressing issues
Yeah, it's true, which is good.
Cause you seem to have a lot
Oh, gosh, you know. Yeah.
There's a a chat message from Bob Hansen
Yeah, we we've been watching that stuff which is
He tried control. A he tried it. And yeah. Whatever
Oh, they they've changed that again. Oh, good! Gosh.
Yeah.
I don't know
What's coming up next month? Gary
Slack.
Oh, we're working and trying to get well, Steve Lombard is trying to put together and a a sample of using S.
Trace. Basically he'll set it up to watch.
In this case zoom and when zoom is running, use S.
Trace to show which parts of the Linux kernel and various Linux commands are being invoked by zoom.
How the information is being passed, so it it hopefully would be a good internals.
Demonstration, and the tools you can use for for internals, including security work.
So sorry we'll see how that goes. It's not for sure.
And for definite yet. But that's what we're working
Does? He know he's going to do that for the main meeting?
Or at the St. Louis Linux meeting here
You have to be determined
Yeah, to be determined. Okay, I'm well. The next early first Thursday, a month of a month the slack meeting will be
Announced, and going on and fill Bunch and myself will be there trying to help people.
With configuration. It's uses kind of hard doing that remotely, but we haven't had any big response with a live session.
We tried that once and didn't have enough. Enough. People show up to make it worthwhile.
And still through through the end of the year. I don't see us doing anything
Face to face meetings. Okay.
Hey, Stan, mate, maybe you can twist Bob's arm to come to the meeting when you got some time.
Maybe use a cell phone to look. Look when you look at what he's doing on the screen.
Help them figure out a microphone
That's an idea. We could try that
I don't know this. Does the Bios have sounds.
The settings depends on the the older machines, I think, had a problem with that real old ones.
But I don't think the new
No, I I don't I don't. I don't remember seeing anything in a current virus about sound, because that's all.
Yeah.
That's the driver. Good and the motherboard used to be.
Yeah.
You had to configure your external ports and things like that in the Bios. But that's been 2025 years ago.
Yeah, yeah, you're right, I said. I'm not remembering things like like I will.
Hope to whatever and
Are you trying to get somebody's somebody's microphone working
Yeah.
Yeah, we're trying to get the bob hands his microphone working.
He's he's had problems. The last couple of meetings.
It
He's had it working before. I think
I mean. Obviously he's well. He he doesn't appear to be muted.
Otherwise he'd have the mute symbol on the the little up arrow next to the mute button.
Did he click that and make sure. He selected the correct input
Oh!
He! He! He can't find that screen either. Using a browser or he doesn't have the app installed.
I don't think or
Oh, I see. Yeah. That's too bad cause that that gives you a lot.
And then there's also the audio settings panel.
I found that the there's a switch called automatically Adjust microphone volume, which is selected will mess everything up.
I hate that thing. I always turn that off and then turn the input volume for the microphone all the way up, or you know 80% of the way, and that'll usually take care of anything
Yeah, it. Yeah, the office auto seems to work. If you set the base level first like, set set the mic level 80% up and then turn auto on and
I've done that and found that it for some inexplicable reason somewhere along the line.
It will be audio input volume will turn itself down again.
Huh!
Yeah.
So. So I I just I don't like using it at all, but you know, maybe it depends on which version of this year, using, or rather using it at a browser or something
And I think a lot of this is all hardware depended.
Anyway, there's so many different variables.
Yeah. Okay.
Oh, for next month's main meeting. I plan to do another base session.
Something really simplistic like it's called a presentation called what is Linux, and it's an old presentation I had.
That I'd never done at any of our meetings that have been recorded, and I wanna throw that out there and and it's a modification of what micro Center had put together.
I went in and and updated it, and I need to update it some more, and it's the idea is something you might wanna throw at absolute novice people you know that to give them an idea of what Linux is and then I have one the the following month and another one I want to do that
It's well, actually 2 more than the following 2 months about what Linux is, and about Linux, and why use Linux and things like that?
I haven't quite this decided how to describe what I want to do, but I want to throw it out there and get responses from the knowledgeable people to give. Me.
Advice, of what they think might be an improvement. If you're gonna try to convince somebody that they should at least think about trying Linux or or look into it, or explore it more.
So but that's primarily what I'm gonna be doing next month on the main meeting.
That's base, and I have to go fast because I've got 43.
Slides, and I need to add at least another 2 slides
Oh, well!
Oh, you're you're a magician at that stand, so we'll we'll we'll live with what you do.
Yeah. Oh, gosh! I remember the first presentation I did for Slug.
Was that the old sonen cause it's son.
Yeah.
And yeah, I did a 50 50 slide stuff and and some gal started to ask me questions.
I said, just hold that thought. I got a slide. It'll cover that, and I just rattled them off.
But I did one slide a minute
I think I remember that
Yeah.
Oh, well, and then you know I I I get testy, you know.
I just sometimes I don't mind questions in the middle, but I guess if I'm trying to you know speed things up and keep going real fast pace of somebody asks the question you know I covered that last month, or that was on slide 4 you showed up after slide 16 why you asking those questions now
That's one reason I like to have the slides. Number 2
Hmm.
Cause somebody will be the presentation, and they'll be, you know somebody will see something, and I'll be 3 slides further on, and they'll say, Hey, hey, go back, I want to have a question about that so you know they're on slide 12, and you had a question.
On slide. 9. Yeah.
But that's just personal preference.
Anything else. Gary
Anybody. Besides, Bob Henson have problems that they we need to talk about.
Cool Nope! Nothing from me.
Okay, Gary, and needs new glasses.
By lead, Lambert, but before we get started with that, do we have any announcements
Or not.
New glasses, new ears, yeah.
And a nice Linux laptop is what I'm hearing
I keep tie. Tell me about what a bad piece is.
Apple stuff he's got there
Oh, yeah, it's it's but it's 25 years old.
Oh, he's had it for so long. It'd be a shame to get rid of it now
It belongs in a museum not in use
You could probably run Linux on it
On apple crap.
Yeah.
It's been done
I've got a I got a
But that's on the new. The new stuff.
The old stuff would only run, whatever whatever Darwin or whatever the the back OS was.
Well, I don't know what here it is, but I came across a 17 inch macbook and in like got it updated to the latest version that apple will let it run, and I could load any software because it's too old so I loaded Linux.
On it, and it's been working fine ever since like I said.
Wow!
I don't like. I have no idea what year that is.
Well, we're weren't the old app old apples like Power PC.
Or something.
Yeah, I feel back far enough, but those probably not working anymore.
Yeah. But I don't think there's a Linux or or power.
PC. Is there, or anybody
There probably was some time.
I think there are still some distro or 2 out there that will support power.
But the apple friend.
PC. Go to Distro watching. It would tell you
The apple transition to power. PC. Is so long ago.
I don't think it's even relevant. There's probably those machines don't work, anymore but some might
Yeah.
Hi, see Bob Henson talking.
Well in any. Yeah, they're not coming through, though
No
Well, yeah. But he's muted now. If he unmutes it, maybe it'll work mute.
It's just moving
Space, bar
Hold a space bar down, Bob. Try talking now
Yeah, he he is unmuted now. He's muted
Now he's unmuted, but still not coming through.
Yeah, he just unmuted still not working yeah.
Maybe his volume is turned down so low that it can't hear him
That's where that pole follow. You comes in
All right, Bob, if you're coming also, if you're coming through the browser on the tab that you're going through on the browser, if it's far, Fox there's got up in the tab there's a teeny Tiny, little Button that that will
mute, you
And if you click on that it'll unmute you if you're running Firefox
I guess it's whatever
Yeah, this is still shows muted. I I tried to send them an unmute, but
Yeah.
Now there's there's about 4 different ways. You can screw up the sound on these things.
I've done it in some of the recordings I've done.
Or I'll have like simple screen recorder. Go on, and it will record everything.
But then I'll I'll go to share a screen, and then I'll come back to the to the tab or we're for the main.
You know the main zoom, or just see as a and I'll click that firefox tab and up there it's got a little teeny, tiny little icon that's a speaker, and if you're not careful you click that when you click that tab it'll click that
Speaker, button, and then you're muted across the browser, and you know it.
Yeah.
It won't record anything
And there's 6 other ways you can screw up the sound, you know.
Yeah.
Yeah, the function keys on on most laptops, you know.
Yeah.
Well, hey? Let's do that back half a step, Bob, are you running a browser?
And so, if so, which browser, or or are you running the zoom app
Are you hearing us not
I think he's frozen
Oh, yeah, it looks like
He's frozen. Yeah.
They're dead just joking
You probably kill over. You'd like he'll over his dead, though.
Okay.
Okay, okay, yeah, he said. Browser Firefox.
Yeah.
So that's one more way that it it could be screwed up.
It's just Firefox itself could be block on the audio
Yeah. Yeah, it could be blocking it with with that tab that microphone button up in the tab.
Okay.
Cause I I've had it set up before where sound was recording.
To this simple screen recorder just fine, and then I bounce back and forth on with the with the browser, and I'd click that tab button to get back to that th the the screen where zoom or Jesse was recording or displaying and if I
Wasn't careful. It would hit that little microphone button, and then it'd be muted
Is is tap 2 showing now
No, I mean it's such a tiny button. If if it's if it's if it's that little tiny icon muting you, you can actually see a slice through it but it's very very small, if you click it again.
It'll take that little slash away from that. But it's it is a sound icon in the in the Firefox t tab, you know, like when you go like multiple tabs in your browser yeah
Oh, Steve, segment is showing up. Hi, Steve!
Hey? Can you hear me?
Yeah.
Good.
Yeah, we hear you fine, Bob Hansen. We cannot hear
Huh! What happened? Bond?
Hey? He's he's frozen, too. Must be cold in there
Yeah. Yeah.
Is he up in Minnesota, or something
I don't think so.
I I I think it's a hardware problems
Yeah, his image appears to be frozen. That's for sure
Yeah. Yeah.
I would suggest to see the go out and come back in.
At this point that might clear it up
It's usually what I do
It got cold the last 2 days
Oh, it's yeah.
Yeah.
I didn't authorize it.
It's on an order
Old where you are, and it might have gone down to the fouries where I am
Wait, wait.
Well.
Parties.
Yeah, you see all the Texans going. Oh, it's freezing
Yeah. Well, last year you guys, had snow when you gave up completely rolled over dead
Oh, was it okay?
Yeah, for like 3 days now that was the year before last year was just an ice store. Yeah.
Bob Henson says on the chat that he's gonna try rebooting.
I don't think it'd be necessary to reboot.
And just just close Firefox and reach and
Tap your foot once if you could hear us
But yeah, close firefox, and and try signing back in yeah.
Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. Oh.
How, how, how soon are we gonna start doing the the actual presentation?
Lee, what do you think
I don't know
What, the
We could. I guess we can get started
Okay, it's be recorded. You can always watch the archive
This is true.
Hey? Lead you turn off my video
Well, yeah, I don't. I don't want to look at you wiping the camera, distracting
Well, I wasn't wiping it. I was trying to.
Oh, Will!
Smart ass
Yeah, I I I let stands stay out there because that that keeps the display.
If you have everybody's, if there's no video, then you don't see the gallery.
Really
You gotta have one. But yeah, sounds fun to watch
Yeah, very. Animated.
Well, anyway, let's kick this thing off
Alright.
Welcome fans. This is the November meeting. The St.
Louis Linux Users group. I know most I don't see any unfair.
Your names up here, so we'll keep the front end short I've been a sushi fan for about 20 years, and except for some weird things that I worked had to work around, I've never found anything that sushi wouldn't do and it's a heck of a lot better than a
Lot of other distros. You know. For example, it's it has some tools I'll show you some of them as we go here.
It has. Yes, which is a setup tool that you can run on a command line and and and curses you know I've got 25 or 30 machines scattered around different locations I can log in any one do anything I need to on there and not and never run a gui
Other other places you could use. Web men and web men still option, but they need a browser.
You need to forward to port, or whatever
And the other thing is this is based in Europe. It doesn't have any Drm.
Built in. And if you need video drivers or codec drivers for anything.
All you have to do is download them from a secondary repository, which is not part of the main open source system
Anyway, couple of years ago. I think it was with the open Susie 15.2 or one or 2, which is like 4 versions or 3 versions old. Right now.
It's they came out with a they move butter Fs.
Into the production. Oh, production! Environment.
You mean? They adopted it as the standard default
Right. They adopted the standard. There are a lot of distributions in Susie I'll point out a couple of interesting ones.
I thought, a leap, which is sort of the stable, distribute distribution.
Leap is. Oh, they've got! They've got tons of them, but there's a leap like fifteen-four, which is this machine?
And there's a tumble wheat leap is a stable release.
It's updated, did not every year tumbleweed has nightly builds, and you have to update at least once a week to keep the system from complaining
So basically at this point butter Fs is the file system for the base machine.
It has a lot of neat features. It has a snapshot capability
We'll look. We'll look at that in detail.
Basically anytime you want. You can pull a snapshot of that current partition
You can keep a whole bunch of them, you know. For example, this machine here I have installed
It's about 2 weeks old
And, let's see, get it fit on one screen
This is October, 20 fifth. That's when I that's when I rebuilt this machine last time, and as we get into it, I'll tell you why I had to rebuild it.
But it was for a fairly straightforward process, and I'll talk about it more detail later on.
But the point is, there are anytime. You make a change to the system, and the system knows about it.
If you do an update or something or chaper will automatically grab a pre and a post snapshot
Free is a snapshot before changes post is a snapshot.
After changes, and join that 2 week period. I removed a bunch of them and basically I try to keep a week or 2 of snapshots, so I can always go back to that snapshot at any point.
Time that I want to
Anyway. We'll we'll talk more about those details here in a few minutes since you have snapshots.
It also gives you the capability of rolling back to a previous snapshot.
We'll talk about that, too. One of the neat things about Butter.
Fs. Which I haven't explored has need to explore.
Is there all of the updates to the file system are transactional, you know.
Basically I think I don't know for sure it might be copyright, you know, basically before a change is committed to the file system.
Calendar.
It is. There's a copy of it, then the change is, it is written, and then it is is verified copy on right
Well, the other neat things about okay, damn it.
Better. Fs. Again capabilities. I haven't gotten into. You.
Can actually maintain anchor incremental backups, offsite, or on another machine.
And basically every time a change, or whatever increment you configure anytime, the file system changes, a snapshot, is pushed to this off, site or this external backup and when it's on and validated on the external backup it's merged with the previous
Snapshot, and then it'll keep a snapshot history of whatever you configure.
And so basically you can configure a real time external backup of that file system
Interesting concept that might explore some point in time
You can also compress the butterfs, file system
If you you can mount him, mount minus open, press your device, your path
Fs tab fs tab entry uid home.
Notice here there is something called a sub volume in the Butter Fs system.
This is another concept that is very useful, because by default
See if I could do this.
When you create a root file system, butter Fs. Will
Create a number of snap or sub volumes.
Okay.
Like partition, 2 on my root file system. Here, let's see it's a 100 gig which is us.
These are all sub volumes bar, route, Tim user local opt 2 for boot, one for efi one, for I 386 snapshots themselves little live in their own sub volume, and then root is everything else.
That's 2 question.
That's 11 sub volumes, sorry root partition Butterfs system
Each one of those can be backed up or made or managed separately
Yeah, so that's a sub volume mounting a sub volume existing files can be encrypted
You can also encrypt the file system do you frag? Manage our yeah? 3 choices for compression
Do you love Lgo and the Standard. It's a new one.
There's a lot of neat stuff and butterfs, but
You know. Sometimes you can get yourself in trouble
Okay.
Or do you get yourself in trouble?
Let's look at some of the intricacies of butterfs
Number one: how much space is being used
Butterf, snaps, butter fs, snapshots really make.
D you useless
For any space accuracy. For example.
Now here are all my sub volumes on P. 2 right here
The one, the file system with 11 sub volumes is 11% used.
My entire OS installation is 11 gig. I gave it a 100, so I've got 90 gig left
But that used 11 gig does not include snapshots
Because snapshots are track separately
And that's what we're saying here
It complicates it
Snapshots only contain diff blocks so a full accurate calculation would require the equivalent to do you.
A very file in a snapshot. So the statistics are wrong.
If you look at the entire file system with Df
Kind of like you, said a jingle box
On butterfs. Then Df. Is pretty much meaningless
What Fs. File system show
Okay, you can see a little bit of difference here.
This is one device: use 10 gig
Size, 100 gig.
Md. 1, 27, p 2
It's fairly close here, because I don't have a lot of snapshots in there, but as you get to 23 forty-fifty snapshots, these numbers will diverge a heck of a lot faster
That's one of the reasons you need to maintain the snapshots for file system
I would have imagined control. The snapshot of the snapshots, or are they managing them? Might be an issue.
Why would you have 5 or versus snapshots versus 20 snapshots
Well, logically, if you have a problem you want to be able to go to back to 2 or 3 snapshots older.
Like the first time the system rolled over and died.
I roll back. One version. It didn't work. I rolled back the second version.
It worked and so I was running on that for another week, and then it cracked out again, and I found out what the real problem was.
That makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
Was running one drive shard on a rate one. So yeah, so the idea is, you want to have at least maybe 3 or 4 snapshots that you could roll back to if you had to
But the issue, but
And the fact that you could put it on a separate system. It makes it easy for you to test over on this other system, and then I would think
Cool.
Yeah. Really and but the thing is, you don't really know when you're making a snapshot
So maybe once or twice a month I'll go in and list them. And what I did here is I deleted 15
I think I was like down here about 35, and I deleted a bunch of them here.
No, I pleaded a bunch of them here between 18 and 30.
Eventually I might go back and purge some more
I thought you said that you don't know when you're making them, and does it automatically make them when you don't know it
Oh!
Every time you change the root file system. It makes a snapshot as in a as a directed change.
In other words, if you're updating something you're going through the package manager and updating that's what all these free and post are.
Oh!
If I do a zipper up there's a pre in a post, zipper up a pre and a post zip wrap pre in a post etc., etc., etc., so every time every time you post an update through this through the system tools it will automatically create a
Snapshot for and after
So that's where all these are coming from
And the point I was making is, yeah I want to be able to go back 3 or 4 if I have to.
But there's a whole slew of men here that I don't really need.
So at some point in the future. You know, when I got maybe 20 here I'll go back and purge purge 10 up I'll get a few more.
I'll go back and you know purge 10, hey?
To say space be. There's nothing in them that I need zipper all
I damn it, Ziper also tells you if you've made any important kernel changes
And there's a description here. These were when I was working on printers.
It took me a while to get the printers configured properly
Luckily I had backups on this machine, and I also had about a month old backup on the big server to back room, so I could go back and pull whatever directories I needed.
And then I adjusted the back as I was making locally, so I had them in the future.
So, you know, notice that these are done by? Yes, and our zipper.
Yes, does. The user managed tool zipper is the system package manager, and I'll I'll show you those here in a few minutes.
Okay, show, slash, df: slash.
This gives you a little more information
And what's the other one usage? Slash.
That's the numbers really aren't too important. Yeah, you you can think of it as just a bunch of pieces that you know floating around, carrying around.
You know, whatever. But the point is
Butter, you know, if you run a low answer you might think it's butterfs.
But butterfs isn't in fault. It's really the package manager.
I'm sorry, Stanford
Because Snaper keeps all those copies around
And if you don't prune them or manage them, you're gonna run out of space
Good.
I like snaper is pretty configurable to about how many you can keep like.
For example, I know there's options to keep like the first one for a particular week, or the first one particular month.
Yeah. There, there's a lot of different quotas.
You can set up different quotas here. A lot of older and lot older installs do that
But a lot of you know. I've got a 100 gig.
I'm using 10% of it. I don't really care.
That's the system. Partition. The main reason is butterfs and a system.
Partition is that a it allows you to roll back. If an update works and B, it gives you separate sub volume management.
So that if you need to recover file in Var live my sequel, or something like that, you can easily do that with Snapper, or with the
Snapshot.
And as you're saying, there's a lot of different ways you can set up quotas again.
I haven't done it. I'll publish up.
We'll push this out on there if you notice.
But Rich did this originally. He's a chairman of Susie. He's a big butterfs, Fan, and you know we'll we'll put this out to grab. The links if you need them
You can also balance. There's a balance process you can use
You can relocate data in less utilized shocks to free up more space. No. But again, if you're that tied on space, you know you're you're really not taking advantage of the butterfs environment
You can also list right. We did a snap or list.
You can delete them, as I said to perjure
A lot of these are tuning tools, you know, ways to tune your butterfs. System
What if?
Your file system goes, read, only
How many, how many people had a read-only file system kind of freaky when it happens
Is that your Carly?
Never had one like that
But anyway, the point is, don't pay. Now. Here is the biggest Gotcha which will bite you in a butterfs world
There's this thing called check option, repair.
That is a bad thing. It will actually hose your fire, your file system, except specific cases, where it's designed to fix.
If you, if he's let it run wild, forget it
The point is some of the things you can try is scrub.
You can scrub the status extra status. You can use the backup route tree device 3
As I found the hard way
I actually had a hard disk failing. So when the raid array went, read only butterfs what we don't dead drive
Wasn't that big deal? I I ordered a couple of new 500 gig Ssds put them in rebuilt the file system restored to stop.
You know, copied over the stuff I needed and didn't take it took.
I don't know. Maybe a day's worth of time over a week getting everything back the way I needed it.
It was. It wasn't that hard, especially since I did it twice
We saw butterfs, check
If you run about Rfs check, though you have to do it on the unmounted file system.
I do not. There is a minus minus force option. I do not recommend it
Or you can backup or recover all day to a secondary device
Or you can doing oursing. I'll talk about that more again here in a minute.
Some other options. You can try. Yes.
Imagine you mentioned. The minus mine is force. If I heard you correctly.
No, I was talking about a mountain file system
Not news, and not doing the repair. You don't want to do period, but you can't check a mounted file system unless you do unless you force it minus minus you you butter fs check minus minus force will run on a mountain file system.
But I don't recommend it
What would happen to me. I was kind of panicking at the time, and I went looking for different options, and I tried some of the stuff without spending the time to do my due diligence. And figure. Out what good damage the situation worse or what could make the problem worse.
But the screen said, minus minus repair.
Correct. We're repair. We'll attempt to prepare the file system, but I don't recommend it.
Primarily because it is not as stable as like Xfs repair.
I've used Xfs repair many times over the years, and never really had a problem with it.
Butterfs really isn't. That really isn't that richer mature enough?
Yeah.
Good questions, anybody else
And some other rescue options. You can try should recover 0 log.
I tried Joe Log. I didn't do anything fixed byte size. Didn't do anything.
Chunk recover is slow.
Still not working. As I said before, look at your hardware, here's here's a trigger.
A trivial question, How do you look at your hardware at any length distro
Alright, let's let's let me qualify that.
How do you look at your rate? Hardware
There's an
Is there an Ls range card option. I know there's a Ls CPU
There's an Ls hw option
No
If you wanna keep some for longer term
It. It has to be installed
No
What about the dev folder
Md. Staff.
I must be okay, with block devices.
No, that doesn't tell you the status
Lsd Okay, there's 2 parameters here or there's a urgent you here for every drive in that array, and if you have 2 drives, you have to draw and you have to use it's healthy if you have 2, drive you have one you you got a you got a
Discount, in fact, we wrote an At. We were on a Nagios check 15 years ago.
Check raid. Tell how my drives you got, and it'll count to use if you, if you're supposed to have 4 drives, you don't have 4 use it'll send me a page within 15 min hey?
You gotta drive out on a system
Well.
Ls blk day chef
Dash! What.
F fox! Drop.
Well, that gives you the layout of the the 2 drives.
Sda, and Sdb
Yeah.
There's a whole bunch of other options besides what are displayed there, but those are the defaults, so I don't know if that's would help you or not.
I don't think so, because it doesn't tell you what the right configuration is.
What if you've got 3 Sd. A Sdb.
Sdc. Here, and nothing else
Okay.
Were there 4 drives in that array
You know the the only way to Jail that it is Md.
Staff that I know
Because this tells you what devices are in the rate. It's Ray.
It's raid one, and there's 2 drives in raid one and A and B are both up currently
And there are no spare drive
Again there there may be other options, but Proc. Md.
Sat is the one I've gotten used to over the years, and it was
Is there a man page for Mds. That
Thank you.
Sure.
It's not a command as a location
Yeah.
Yeah, it's a file, you know. There's a bunch of stuff in Proc.
You know this is where all the real real time information
The current is saved, for the kernel Proc is really temporary file system that the kernel bills, as he boots up, and as well
Is there a man? Is there a man 5 for Md. Stat.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Yeah, you got a 5 for Proc.
Md. Staff must be for Sue, because I don't have it in Mx Linux
Do you have a rate, or is
Okay, if you don't have a raid or what you don't have it
No, no, you have to have a raid for that. Yeah, okay, alright.
Oh, got it
And that's that's hardware raid
That's that's the the status that the kernel builds when he sees a rayid identify disk or multiple discs on boot in yes, no, no, it's software right
When when you build a rate array, the partition label for the file type is Linux rate, so when the Colonel sees a partition of Linux raid, he knows that there's there's more than one partition for that rate array and he builds them and Md
staff, and then he he grabs each one of those
To build the ray information here in Md. Staff.
Let's try some real quick. Here.
Here. Here's one with some more drives on. Here's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 tries
8 years.
That's like. See which ones which
Hmm.
That's the most blocks, I think that's the 24 TB. One
No, I can tell easily
Yes, Md. One is Md. One here is root
Md. 2 is you is the one here. That's a 24 TB. One
And nd 0 as well
Okay. Good questions.
Emails.
I heard that either Snapper or whatever best doesn't do well with swap files.
Wells, ace, you know you've a swap partition swap files.
Were back in the windows, days, windows, Xp.
Days. Page file that says windows used to do that where I think windows still does that swap file. But every Linux system I've used in more than 20 years had a swap partition, and when you build that partition.
You know basically I I created an array, but instead of 8 partitions, I, as you know, rate one.
I create him as rate 0 which is striping for performance.
So when you, if you ever have to swap something out which it should
Yeah, that Md. 0 is 20 gig and nothing's nothing's being swapped out there
In fact, I think I got a bad memory stick in there that should be a gig
But anyway, does that make sense
So does Sue use a swap. Partitioners use a swap file
Yeah, I was reading about it because on I was trying to do better festival or Fedora as well as I was trying to fit snap around there and they use maybe it's not a swap file but it's like a it's something like a temp.
Fs. That they use for swap. So it's not an actual partition.
Good.
Maybe it's not a file, like you say, but it's like a 10 best type of thing.
I'll see if I can find some information on it.
Yeah. Well, in in the sushi world in in my experience the swap partition. If it's as big as physical memory. When you hybridate a system, it will, it will push memory into the swap partition
And that's how it hibernates the machine
Question.
I've I've seen that happen on laptops before, and that's that's one of the reasons I get.
I I got in the habit of making the swap partition.
Probably at least twice the size of physical memory, if not more you know that way.
If you're doing a laptop, there is enough space to actually hybrid in
But then, a few years ago, when I upgraded fifteen-three on my on my workstation before upgraded the hardware.
It. It wouldn't hibernate at all, so I I pretty much keep up on it
Alright so check the hardware.
What I found was after Dorking with it for 3 or 4 h.
I wasn't getting anywhere, but I did have read-only file system, so it is our sync.
Everything, to an external hard drive. I actually had enough space on a second hard drive in the system, and you know I I just did an arching, I said.
You know the hell hell was it at that point? I haven't found or figured out that their base problem was that one of the drives at that one is SSD.
Is a bad
You're using question
Yeah, that was the in in the raid. One of the raid drives died
Correct, correct as you as actually it was
I'm not. I'm on the wrong system.
No, I actually I didn't even see it until I booted the I took the drives out and I started to hang them on a system in the lab so I could pull files off it.
If I needed them. And then I thought after one of them was was board.
Yeah, it was just nothing there.
I put. I you know I hung the other one on there, and the kernel on that system I was running system rest.
The colonel said. You know. I looked at the Md.
Sat on that it said, You know, Raid, 1 one available, the other missing
So it was you blank.
Hey? We could only have one drive plugged in, but be because the first drive I've plugged in had died.
So it didn't even recognize it.
Does that make sense?
No other words, when I'm troubleshooting something.
I took both this over to an extra machine. Go to system, you know.
Plug them in boot it's just rescue the first drive I tried wasn't detected.
The second drive I tried, came up with an with a active rate configuration with one partition
And one missing. I don't remember that if there was one specified here, but basically it was supposed to be rate one.
But there was only one drive forward
Okay.
Good.
So when I should make a file backup. I'm talking about pull and drive out.
Hanging on another system just making, you know our sink and everything off, or in this case I had a spare, hard drive in this system, not a spare hard drive, but I I keep a lot of work all virtual machines is that on a separate 2 TB drive on this machine so
That's what I mean by file backup, or if you want to try to butter Fs Backup, restore, you know.
That is another option.
If you still want to fool with it. That's the time to try repair
Because you haven't lost anything. You know you've got a good back.
You got more than one good backup of your data. If you can repair it.
Now is the time to prepare the file system. But the point is, don't ever try to do that in unless you've no, you have a good backup basically
Because once you start trying to repair it. You've got your odds are probably 55 that you're going to host. It
Okay.
Yes.
This is the end of the official presentation
And and again I'll I'll push this out there with Stan.
He'll he'll save it on Bach for us.
Richard Brown. Here is one of the mucky marks at Sushi.
He's been an evangelist. He put somebody's out there creative Commons license.
So I'm happy to grab it, and you know, give them credits
Now we get the fun stuff lab time
First thing we're gonna do is walk through the basics of an installation
If I could find my
And let's see I need this guy
This might be a little small for you guys be advised that if you go to your toolbar on more I think it's under more on most of them you see a zoom option zoom to like 200 and you'll be able to see the phones much better because since this is the
installer screen running under virtual box until I can get the system up and running and install virtual box extensions. I can't scale the screen
Couple of points to make here is when you do an install.
Notice you have some function function keys down here on the bottom.
I always had F. 3, and set all the installer sizes to one K.
By 768,
You're not
I'm not seeing anything, Lee. Nope.
Well, that sucks
Can see your cursor on the black screen
It doesn't show. Damn it!
It means that virtual box won't
Make the screen shareable
And let's see, I don't think I have any options here
And you can see the virtual box screen? But it's not showing on here. Damn it.
And I probably can't do any screen capture
Sorry about that. I've never tried to do a virtual box screen on here before.
Alright. Let me let me switch. Gears
I will very carefully do this, and yes.
Our live machine
Still nothing. There we go
Here we go.
Yup!
Okay. You got the shell window. Okay.
Yes, on root, on storm.
Yeah.
Okay.
Oh!
Okay. Yes. Is Susie's command line. Just a management tool.
Yeah stands for yet another setup tool
Again. The beauty of this is, it runs on a shell session you don't need X windows.
You don't need a Gui. All you need to shell connection, and you can do probably 95% of what you would want to do on the system. Configuration
Let's jump into a petitioner
Yes, I know it's a live system. Luckily my system is not a server
Okay.
Doing it, live.
I used to say it the other way around. It's it's luckily it's not my system.
It's your system.
Okay. Start off. With how are you gonna show you asked later.
But we'll do it now.
When you define a disk.
There's 3 hard drives in the system. Sda
Is part of system, when it says part of system here it means this physical drive is part of the rate array.
The system part the system array here same thing with Sdb.
Sdc. As I was saying, is my slash.
You mounted for mounted drive. This is 2 TB for all the work stuff that I don't actually have to back up all the time
And then going down into the radius. Here here are the 3 raids that I have defined.
I'll show you how to define them here in a minute.
Md. System is 447 gig, which is 2 discs.
The first 500. Meg. Is your Efi partition boot partition
System 2 is the butterf Fs partition, which is system.
3 is Xfs, which is a Home Directory
Lvm. Which we don't have. And here's butter Fs. Now
Go to the system. Definition
Oh!
No notice that you have a lot of snaps. Every snapshot defined in the system is defined as a sub volume on the Butterfs partition
And then you have sub volumes, as we saw as I showed you before in the Via in the DM.
Each one of these is a sub volume definition in the partition
Okay.
Bar is 600 7,260 May user local, is 18 kB.
It's empty. 35, Meg. And Temp.
Okay.
1 point, 4 Megan root, 4 and 79 may get opt okay, 2, boot, part, 2 boot sub volume.
And no Camp Fs and nineps. Now, when you create a water Fs system, partition, you won't have any snapshots on it yet.
But one of the points I was going to make is you may have a lot of or 3 or 4 sub volumes on, or that you're never gonna use
So if you had an extra one you would highlight it here all dial for delete
And then obviously, don't hit. Yes.
Alright, everybody comfortable with the concept of a sub volume.
Let me ask you a question is a sub volume, physical entity in the file system, or a logical entity
I would think it's illogical
Anybody else
Yeah, they they are they are logical. They are not physically connected to anything on the disk.
They are logical entities in the butter, F. As file system.
And that's why you know they they basically use space of the entire butterfs, fires file system.
But yet, as we saw before.
If you do a df
They all report the same size
Because Du and Df and the kernel level tools operate on a partition which is a physical data structure
Within butter Fs. All these sub volumes, our logical data structures, which is why kernel level tools don't know what to do them
You know when when I look at this at this kernel.
Report, all I see is a 100 gate, which is the size of the base partition.
I see 11 gig use, which is a total use by everything in that base partition.
It doesn't tell me anything about sub volumes
No, those are all logical entities within the butterfs.
File system that makes sense
So that's 2 separate options minus minus. Repair and minus minus 4
They are similar in that an Lvm. Logical volume is a logical data contact within a physical partition.
So you know the fact that the volume is a logical entity within a physical partition means it's analogous to Lv.
Although the physical mechanisms are different. Lvm.
Is typically used to expand a file system across multiple physical volumes, typically whereas butter Fs. Is used to create multiple logical volumes within a single physical volume
Does that make sense Gary
It was a couple of quotes to talk about. Better up up us being a file system. And the volume manager is is this: kinda why it's considered a volume manager
Okay.
I know it's I know it's pretty deep, but
That's what we got.
That's better. Fs for you.
Okay. We talked about
Is anybody seen another distro that actually had actually automatically configures a butterfs for the root protection
And again.
Yeah. Fedora: Fedora does it but they haven't gone.
The extra step of adding snapper, and adding this the snapshots to the boot menu.
I think it's because they're they do something a little bit different with their web setup.
They're trying to invent some new standard for the way that the grab should be set up.
Yeah.
And so the packages that are available aren't super good at that yet. Dealing with that
Yeah, it it always earned me when you know major players just all say, Oh, we need to.
We need to do our own thing. We're gonna go off and do Yada, Yada. Hey?
How are the rest of the world, you know it's it's you the whole point of of Major Distros is to let them lead the pack not go off, and do their own, thing but anyway, that's that's a minor reason.
That I like Susie better than Fedora. Red Hat
Okay, anyway, and am, anyhow, anybody else.
Doesn't have it
So the snapshots are only made of the root file system.
They're not made of the file system. Is that true?
They would they could be at the home file system. But I usually use Xfs
The the the in my mind. The main reason you use butterfs is, if you have a file system roll over and crash on you, you can booted to a previous snapshot
And you're back up and running, you know, in in a few minutes we you know the the the main issue.
There is butterfs as a system file system as a system, or as a as a system. File system.
It gives you that capability rolling back to previous snapshot as well as some of the other things we talked about like off-site, you know, pushing your pushing your snaps off, offsite maintaining real time backups and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the
Fancier tools do that
But for home partition, you know you're you're only you're only concerned about recovering data.
There's other ways to do it. I guess that they're easier
You're not concerned about recovering to a point in time, so you can run the system type of thing and I'm not sure that that butterfs makes a good use case for home partition only because it makes it more complicated and yeah you know and and and like I say you know knock on
wood. I've had 3 or 4 times over the last 1015 years when an Xfs file system just rolled over and died on me
Actually fest repair brought it back. You know, the previous incarnation of that 24 TB system in the back room.
I at 1 point I couldn't. Even I could boot it, but I couldn't mount.
The you know at that point at that point time is like a 10 TB file system.
I couldn't mount it because it was dirty.
And I've run an Xfs repair about 12 times in a row, and it came back.
I record it
And after after running for half an hour an hour or 2, or whatever next morning I come in and start again.
Lunch time I start again. Eventually it came back
But that case I was just concerned with with recovering data to a usable point.
I wasn't concerned with recovering specific data are recovering a system to an operational state, because that was mainly backup data
You you might be able to make a used case for a home partition, but if you did, I would certainly make it a different partition, you know, like you saw here.
Go ahead!
We're we're for all those cases raid
Was that case raid
Okay.
Yes, yes, it was. There was 6 2 TB discs
Thank you.
And I I had it organized something like this, you know.
This is butterfly, or this is right here system partition, which was about 15 gig on each drive, and everything else was in slash.
You which was data storage
In fact, if I'm still on here right now.
Oh!
Yeah, here's the trial to terrify you. Partition root is 600 gig to boot partitions
I don't know is, hang on. Second. Did I make?
No, I've made rude xfs on here cause I built this about 3 years ago, and butterfs no, this is like 8 years ago.
I built it originally, and Butter Fs really wasn't mainstream at that point
You know today it would be better. Fs.
You know there's it's then the used cases are, you know, not all over the board, but you know butter Fs is gaining more practical applications today, than had 5 years ago, and and that's what that's what makes it so not so neat or so nice
When you say practical up applications, you mean that really large databases, or what
That's a good question, Stan. 22 TB is the biggest thing I've dealt with in a long time.
No, I take it back. We had like 80 TB on a machine I built downtown, but then was like 20 years ago, and the only thing out there was exfs and it it would still be live today, if the heart if the hardware was hadn't been 32 bits
You know. So somewhere we got 26 term by drive, sitting around, and of course that was fun upgrading one upgrade and 22 1 TB drives to 24 1 TB drives, to 26 TB drives.
Wow!
But I think I think when you take a snapshot it's only gonna take a snapshot of the route file system and anything.
You have a sub volume of will be excluded from the snapshot at least that's how, when you setting it up on non Sou systems.
That's how it works so like you'd always want a snapshot of your home partition, for example, or I'm sorry a stop volume of your home partition that way when you take a snapshot you're excluding your home partition so when you roll back like
If you crash your system and you roll back to a snapshot. You're not losing all the files in your home. Your home since that snapshot was taken you know so that's how it works on other des shows at least
Yeah. But but my point was you would not want to have the home so home as a sub volume of room.
You might make the case for butter. Fs. On home as a separate partition
But I would never run it under a root partition, because if the OS.
Much as itself. You lose your home.
You, you follow
Yeah, that is, that is very true. But there's something to be said for having all the space like.
If you're on this pretty small laptop, maybe you don't want to carve it up into a bunch of partitions.
You just want like one, you know. Fluid partition and that's kind of the beautiful thing about sub volumes, too.
Right. You don't have to declare their size so they can really be in size.
So yeah, I agree with what you're saying for most systems, though, agreed
Yeah okay, well, and and the and the other and the other point is
And an OS would never, should never have more than 50 gig worth worth of space requirement.
If you got you know if you're living around space, you give it 50.
If you got tons of space, you give it to a 100 just in case, and then throw everything else into.
What you need for other things, whether it's a home partition or data volume like I use slash you, you know, for growth storage.
In in fact, if you notice audio on their partition manager here
Sdc one is a 2 TB drive, and that slash you, and that has, you know, Temp storage project files, archives backup!
Yeah, probably 15, and 1618 virtual machines
And it is a separate physical drive
And so that that's sort of analogous and what I'm saying is, I would I would never put a 4 4 TB drive in here and make this a so volume of root, because that's just insane
You know you're in in in my in my view.
You would always want a system volume.
And as system, by Miss Butterfs, would have any number of sub volumes in it.
And then, whatever you have for data one or preserve, if the OS. Crashes, you would either monitor a separate partition or separate physical drive
Okay.
In fact, if you remember on the rate here
Sd: Yeah, wait a minute.
Yeah. Okay.
Noordan. When I define this system rate, drive you got your efi boot, which you have to have.
There's a 100 gig butterfs for system, and then 346 as a separate physical partition.
In this case I use Xfs. Which is my home graph
And then everything else I have stored. I'm dealing with which is not Home Directory is over here on slash. You
In fact, here, in fact, here, here's a good trick that I I picked up.
I had to update a bunch of doctor systems here lately.
Notice on my separate drive. I have a doctor forward
You might think now, what what would that be?
Yeah.
That is kind of weird, doesn't it? Then that look like
Where I live. Docker
This is a trick I just picked up this year
It used to drive me fruit that I would have to save my entire doctrine in the freaking root partition
Because one of the cardinal rules of data preservation is you never keep anything you want to preserve in a root partition because A gets updated all the time and B.
If it dies, you don't want to lose your stuff.
So I found out that Docker will honor assembling from our live docker to hey?
A separate physical volume.
And when I rebuilt this machine all I did was Reinstall Docker, recreate the Sem link, start, docker and poof!
Everything was there that had been there before I started to rebuild
And it's just totally amazes me that you know.
People. You know. People just blindly run with everything, throwing in a root partition for the operating system.
And when it munches itself they say, Oh, what is me when you only think in the operating system, partition should be the operating system which you can easily rebuild with the thumb drive and you know half an hour a time and then drop in whatever operating system components you need like a my sequel
database you can copy it off, or save that on.
I think you can do same with my sequel, but I never tried it
Che! Again!
And I think I've seen this before, but usually I think I think I've seen people just do the volumes.
Boulder, not the whole docker folder.
So this is slightly different. Take on it
Yeah, well, I I at 1 point I was trying to do volumes.
But then I got to thinking, Well, if I need to rebuild the entire docker environment, are the the images aren't going to be in volumes.
They're birds elsewhere in the file structure, the directory structure.
You know they're in containers, I think. But anyway, the the point is, I found out it worked and now it's my standard.
You know, basically I save the entire docker environment off on a different physical drive, and then that way.
If I have to rebuild the OS. I don't care, because everything's there.
This should be there. All I have to do is recreate the link
Do you think you'd run the issues if like. What if you had a like?
What if you had to restore from Backup? And then the version of Docker and your OS repo was newer than the version that you had right here.
You know, since you're saving everything there, there might be conflicts there, or something
Yeah, I I could see that, but I typically try to at least update monthly, even on production systems.
So anything Running Docker gets updated at least monthly.
So if there was any sort of major, you know, point, change, point, version, change like that.
It should already be in, you know, incorporated in that in that data structure out here.
Yeah, that. That's a valid point. If you're on an update every year, or something like that, or yeah, heaven forbid!
Should you still be maintaining sent to us 7, which wouldn't, which wouldn't run docker, anyway.
But if you have a legacy system that you have to maintain, yeah, I could see that I could see issues or
I'm lost. I don't understand, what you said for the last 5 min.
I don't understand. I understood when you said it to make a SIM link that I understood, but I just don't understand what it is.
Is your dealing with here
Member doctor, one oh, one through 2 O, 4. That Chuck did about 4 or 5 years ago
Oh!
Now, and it's on that hard drive that down has
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it
Okay. Here's another production system
These are all websites.
Okay.
These websites run in docker
Okay, I'm starting to make sense to me. Now, okay.
Okay, there is a docker environment here
Right
This Docker environment contains the entire docker system data.
Okay.
Wise that would normally be stall installed in Barlow.
Docker, but since it's on a separate partition, if I ever do lose the operating system, all I have to do is reinstall, docker, and turn it on, and everything is here
And and link and link this to where you need to link it.
Right? Right, because here's the here's the docker environment.
Cool, cool.
And here's all the shared data that the containers use
And then here's all the containers running
Not to save, enough
Okay. Okay. That's that's all that's starting to make sense to me.
Now, okay.
Cool.
Okay. We talked about sub volumes.
I'm not sure how often Docker
Let's go ahead and quit. Here. Abort
I showed you all the sub volumes on here, or I'm sure all the snapshots on here
We talked about different types of snapshots
Singles are basically a manual snapshot done by.
You are an installer or the operating system
And, let's see.
Okay.
One thing I couldn't figure out was why Dot, the snapshots is a sub value cause.
That's where all the staff, like all the snapshots, go to slash dot snapshots.
But why is that a sub? Volume? Why are you storing your snapshots and a sublime?
I guess that's so. They don't get snapshoted.
But I think snappers are already smart enough not to do that.
So that's something about as well
Well.
Hmm.
Everything, within, no, not everything, because some things are that's interesting.
That's actually interesting philosophical question. I I just. I haven't looked at this for a long time.
Sure.
I just heard that 0, I think is supposed to be. The is the current snapshot
I I I don't know if I don't, anyway.
The point here is single is basically a single point in time.
Snapshot, and then you have pre-OP update and post update.
These are done with zipper, or or yes, zipper is the built in package manager.
Gas is a setup tool that I showed you
And you're saved in slash, dot snapper.
Now dot dot snapper is basically a list. Oh, snapshots, in fact, you guys
I guess they don't. They don't come.
They don't let me see we got we got one.
We got 2. There is no 0.
We got 1718 and 80. Yeah, so there is a directory under under dot snapper
Or desktop shots rather
For each snapshot you have on the system inside a snapshot.
You have Xml file and a Snapshot directory
And I was sorry. That's repeat, and within that Snapshot Directory are the logical directories for file chunks.
They're different.
Hey, Edward, which is
Can't hear you
You're muffled
Alright.
Yes, thank you.
Okay.
Hold on. I think you just put it in chat. Whatever the comment is, stand by
No
Comment was to get snapshots from Fedora, but I couldn't manage to get it working.
Right
Oh, he tried to follow a guide, and gave the URL of the guide
Oh, good!
Gary. The person that was talking was Robert. Love it the chat! The chat is not Robert
Okay. Thank you.
Oh, if you want to get it working, grab install, or install open sushi is.
I think they're kind of the leader in this kind of stuff.
Do I look like a lizard? Come on, I'm not one of you losing people
That one, or what
I'm not one of you lizard people
Well, that's a shame!
And Hello!
I thought okay. I thought Susie was a Kde by default.
I I started I when when I jumped a bunch of years ago, when they started their unity.
Cr. I ended up in known because Kde was, or was, an order magnitude more cumbersome than no was. And I've been using it ever since.
Yeah, I've got different things set up and I don't know a home environment that
Would take me days to rebuild, and Katie
Alright. We talked about
Murder, fence file system show d U. Minus S.
Df: minus. H. This is a data that we showed on the screen before
I was gonna actually show you how to install and check a file system.
It is
But unfortunately, since I can't show you the screen to her virtual machine.
Say again.
Right
Take.
Having Robert love. It is he doesn't have a self muted
Oh!
So I take care of it.
Alright.
We're talking about butterfs check.
You can force it, but don't in the sushi world.
All you have to do is reboot the machine. One of the options on the Grub Manu is rescue system.
It builds the kernel in memory, and you have running kernel to the Ls.
B. Okay, you see which one's your butterfs.
Butterfest check partition, block device, you know.
Is it same thing as boot and system rescue, except it's it's built into the Sushi environment
And again I was going to show it on the virtual machine
If I get I let me go ahead and build it, and then and maybe some point in the future.
We can do a base or something. I can show you how to do it in real time.
Basically you look for your target with snapper. Figure out what snapshot you want to roll back to you.
Reboot the machine. There's an option on the boot menu to boot.
A read, only snapshot. So you so you select that snapshot you boot into it.
It's it's a read-only snapshot.
Look around, and if everything's okay and all you have to do is snap a rollback and you will roll back to the snapshot that you're booted into.
Read only, and you for you from thenceforth be running on that snapshot
Alright. Anybody else
Shoot.
I've got a question or a couple of questions what's the license on all this?
It's open source, I presume.
Okay. Sure. Yes, and and anything within within within. Susie mainstream is Gpl.
3,
Hmm, hmm.
I should say everything within Gp. Within S. She mainstream. Is shepl 3
The only thing that isn't are like Codex that are not license.
Gpl, and you have to install them manually from outside repositories.
Oh Pacman.
Also. How long does this take to do a snapshot
Instantaneous.
How can it be instantaneous
Big.
Was it do some kind of show? Is this going along
Oh, that's right. Magic! Yes, all right.
Now it's it managing it is E is managing.
Don't flux with it. I don't know if this is entirely true, but I've always thought of it as when a snapshot happens.
The current file system is you flip the switch the current file system is the snapshot and then any change after that applies to the running file system.
So basically all you have to is flip that switch on the file system and say it saves that current version as snapshot number Yadda Yadda Yadda, and then any any blockchain after that is the next snapshot so you're really not saving anything.
You're just with a snapshot environment. You flip the switch and that current state or the file system becomes the last section
And then when you, when you continue to change it, that's the next logical snapshot
Does that help?
Sort of. I could understand that as a directory structure happening, but not as a as your files are being backed up
No, there's no backup involved. Just just think of
Just think of a 1 million blocks on the disk
Yes.
And there is a logical structure within butterfs that knows which block gets changed
Hmm.
So when, as you take a snapshot
Every block changed after that is copied so I'd create.
A new block or a chunk of a block. If you're blocked or 16 K.
It might be a fourk chunk, and then that chunk is part of the current file system.
And there's all of magic under the covers that I have never bothered to delve into, you know. But
I can. I can almost understand that, Lee. Thank you.
Surely.
Oh, wow!
And again. That's kind of the way I think about it. You know I I would never try to tell anybody that that's the way it is because I'm not that deep enough in the nuts and bolts
But basically it's just like a logical switch that you said that says, Okay, this block or this chunk of this block is part of the snapshot, and if you change it you have to create a new chunk
And then the new ch.
So it's not really actually back in anything up. It's just kind of
Keep things a a status change, kinda directory or history.
Well, we'll think of it this way. If you create a snapshot and then change a block.
The chunk of that block to change gets saved in a new block
Okay.
So you're not backing up anything when you, when you create a snapshot.
But any subsequent change creates a new block or a new chunk in the file system
So you could still have problems with the file system and the fact that the data corruption is going to get the whole thing
Right
Okay.
And that that is one reason why butter Fs. Is not as recoverable as something like Xfs, because with Xfs you allocate a whole block at a time I think and if that block has a problem you do you replicate the block and then mark the old block that
And then the new block might have some bad data in it.
But at least you've got a new block to keep going in in the butterfs world.
If you muck up those snapshot pointers you're screwed
You know that's why that's why you would roll back to a previous snapshot and then throw away everything that got marked up.
But I don't know how it handles a actual bad walk, so
I imagine, er erasing those interim snapshots, and really making the complicates how it keeps track of all that
Call Mac!
Yeah.
Yeah, it is very complicated and sushi sushi has put a heck of a lot of time and development effort into
If not perfecting it, making it something that's stable and reliable enough to roll out inter production
Yeah.
My yeah, another question. Go ahead.
First off topic. Robert Lovet.
His screen has frozen and his audio is. He's no longer hearing us.
He does have access to chat, but the only thing I can think of to perhaps clear that is for them.
To kill is Zoom client, restart any better suggestions
No
Well, he's probably not really, but it is, you know, close to Browser, reopen a browser and and join again
Yeah.
Okay.
We did, mute, I did mute him because this system was making noise, but we didn't.
I didn't do anything with this video it it it was probably all in conjunction with whatever was causing the noise
Probably was
Well, I don't know. I don't know. This video is frozen.
I think it's still picture
He's not seeing video
Well, no he and chat blame in this video is: let's see what exactly right and say, Well, my video is locked out is what he said
Okay. So he's not seeing video: okay.
That's what I take that
Back to Lee's Point. Just now he was talking about.
Susa has been working to make better off that reliable, and that's some of the comments I seem to see you know, in various chat sessions and stuff is that a lot of people don't consider better of us to be reliable don't consider really production.
Ready. What's your feeling on that late
They don't know how to use it.
That's a good question, Gary given, that the majority of technology today is going towards much more atomic resources.
You know, like docker containers and stuff like that, I would say that the file system is becoming a material
And butter. Fs is more usable for a small to mid size system
Where you want that ability of doing a rollback. If you, if something, if something breaks
But looks like you're using no, so I guess they got both braces
You know because I I guarantee you, Amazon isn't using better Fs.
Aws, or azure, or Google cloud, or any of those players, because you don't need that. You don't need that granularity.
If you know if if you put up a website you've got 3 or 4 different containers on the front end, I am 3 different.
Physical locations around the country. They talk to each other if one on goes down they just start another, and then you got backup databases that are splattered all over the place if something goes down you just bring it up again.
That's what Rancher does. I've been.
I've been working with that a little bit
No, so I would argue that any production system above a small to mid scale environment doesn't have a file system.
Yeah, they have bare metal, and they run some sort of orchestration on
Also, I think maybe the feature is that you get with butterfs.
Oh, well, cause yeah. The copy on right thing that we were talking about the snapshots.
The compression also. If you set up raid in a certain way, it can also detect and repair a bit. Rot.
So those are some pretty, compelling features. So it's really are.
Those features for your workflow worth the you know the risk of it being less mature than like Xfs.
It's been around for decades, you know. So I guess that's kind of a pro and con too
Yeah, I know, and it at that level I would say that better. Fs.
If you need it, is, has features that are probably worth more probably worth significantly more.
Then whatever risk remain as long as you're using the production ready, version you know.
Like from Susie.
Yeah, you'd be. The other thing to realize is is the only or the only major commercial or Linux distribution in a marketplace today. That is independent is Susie
You know a a bonter doesn't have any sort of corporate penetration.
Yeah, they've got a little bit of a cloud presence some of the major writers use it.
But yeah, no, you know none of them. None of the big providers do you know, whereas you know, Susie has good open source tools, and they take the same thing and package it with support and sell it to the big players in fact for years it was the only thing that runs on on ibm mainframes
I don't know if if if if you can't tell, I'm I'm a fan
Yeah, can you Lee? Can you roll back to that slide where it had listed all those different versions of Susan
Or webpage. Go that web page.
Oh, that wasn't a slide. It was a web page. Give me a browser
No, but I can find my share. Share window.
That didn't look right
There we go!
Down.
I'm just looking at just different distributions here
It was the Su say, screen that listed like
12, or 15 of on the screen, and you you, I think, was where you were.
Gonna go, try to demonstrate that
You can see these right tumbleweed, leap 19.
Yeah.
Armberg Power, PC. Version, Factory Risk Factory Arm
Oh, it was! It was a su say, green screen! It wasn't wasn't not this website.
And besides, that's very.
We're not seeing the dropdown right now. If that's what we're talking about.
Oh, you're not seeing a dropdown
No, we don't see the dropdown we just see like steam and stuff.
We see the website but not the dropdown
Oh! To help.
This is weird because I saw it the first time. Maybe it's cause you have it maximized.
Now you didn't have it maximized before
Well, wait a minute. Let me try to share the desktop.
How about now?
Okay, there. Halfway down. This is Open Sue factory power. PC:
Or they somebody talking about power? PC. Asking about it earlier
Yeah, weren't showing the earlier Max using power. PC:
That's yeah. That's what the discussion was. And I think that was Tom, and not Tom, and the person who was talking about it is no longer on the session.
Good.
Oh, wait a minute. No! Jay was Tuesday was talking about something.
But ask that question. I think
And all of the earlier packs, I believe, were Power PC.
Until some day what the date was, and they moved over to Intel
Yeah, I mean there. There's in fact, some of this has changed so fast in the last couple of years that I haven't even kept track of it
Yeah, I've been doing the leap here for
You know, probably 1215 years. 17 is a most recent major, and then this machine done fifteen-four.
I'm using fifteen-three on all servers that I manage.
Like I say about about once a year. I'll you know, like one fifteen-four comes out by the end of this my next spring.
I'll have upgraded everything to, probably by middle of next year I'll be having everything upgraded to 19, and then I'll be on 20 on my machine here
But what I don't have, what I what confuses me is they've got factory, which is some of the real specialized versions.
After 17 risk arm power, PC. And Z. And they've got back ports which are the distros you use.
If you've got Sushi Linux enterprise 12 and 15
So the current software is back ported to them, you know, to those versions, and then you still got the old sushi lunch enterprise back to 11
So basically 15 sp: 4 is the commercial version of leap, 19 and then tumble weed is a rolling release. They use for all development
Now we would really torque me out is last winter I had to build a new PC.
For a client because it it it cracked out.
The motherboard died, and I had to get so I went down to micro center.
I got a motherboard a CPU member in, and my memory, and a case which took me off because the cases are so different now that they're they're they're crazy.
I mean they're paying the bill, but anyway, I could not get a leap to boot, because the freaking video driver for the motherboard wasn't in fifteen-four.
So the only way I could build it was to go to tumbleweed, because that was the only way I could get into the boot sequence because tumble we'd had a driver for the video chip on the motherboard
Hmm.
So I got 1 one machine, one machine out of 30 on tumble. Weed everybody else on 18 right now
But that was just a fluke right? Because that particular board. Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, you you could. It was an age issue. I had to get.
I got a new motherboard. It didn't occur to me that they would that the driver wouldn't be in in leap
Gotcha, Gotcha.
Oh!
Because you know leap will run Standard Vga. But apparently the video chips on the on that motherboard didn't have fault legacy.
Yeah.
Video. They only had, whatever their new gamer video video crap was.
And if those drivers weren't in fifteen-four, I didn't have time to figure it out. So it is. I just jumped on a tumbleweed
Which means about every 3 days. Now I have to go in and do a zipper refresh to stop the doggie of check from complaining that there's updates that haven't been posted
Alright.
Hmm.
I think you're done, Lee
No, I don't know. Give me. Give me! Give me a thermometer. I'll stick myself
Hi guys thanks. A lot I'll be here very much getting.
Quote by the way I was
Damn! It's not monitor right
Say again.
I can't man. This 3 monitor stuff is is, is freaky
I mentioned Pac. Man, before. These are the Sushi repositories
Here's the main one, I installed from there there's all kinds of update repositories.
Notice the these are one. The ones in cyan are active, the ones in brown, are not. There's 2, 4, 6, 8 repos that are used on a regular basis for updates
We've got a non oss update main update is all open source
Or just Sushi Linux enterprise updates
But the point is, here's the Pacman. Pacman is for stuff that is neither not open source or commer our
Open source. Back there is where all the cortex live
Because if I do an update, I'll even show.
That the Codex I've installed
Alright.
2 years all the codex that came from Pacman. But since there are also other versions out here in the in the main updates that aren't inclusive of all the code codecs I need they show here. As will not be installed. Which is fine cause those are just you know codecs
And looks like you have been some big upgrades here that came out in the last week.
I probably ought to do it.
Any other questions.
Yeah, just doing some. Yeah, some some reading, wondering if it's applicable to nonlinear systems.
Yeah.
And I I post it and discuss. There was an article that just mentioned that there is a actually a Github reference.
Somebody has a a better Fs. For Microsoft windows so odd that.
But okay, how about Bsd: did you notice? Is there A.
No Bsd as zfs
If if you need better capabilities, then Xfs, you know most of the Bsds have Zfs nowadays, which is, which is argue arguably provides most of the significant factors of better effort
Bsd
Yeah.
I would say Pcr. Better offices copying and trying to catch up to Zfs
Okay.
How would I look for butter? Fs. Here on distro watch, anyway?
I have never play with it. Just not that much
Good boy.
Oh! I'll put the up at the top. There's a link to where is it?
Search over over toward the top search and site map. Go to the search, tab up
Oh, here we go! Search!
I think, and
There, you!
Oh!
Heavy word, package, distribution.
Here.
Okay. Where do I have?
Package, management.
I don't see an option here to
This this would be the page where it would be listed.
I guess
Yeah, here's all the all multi choice
Probably not likely for free Bsd
Stan. I think you're our expert
Yeah.
Okay, I was right. Yeah, butterfs is copy on right?
Whereas Ufs is basically journaling what Rfs is b-tree dfs is pool
Gfs. Larger Max file Size
Huh!
It is. Don't even list sushi under influential developers
Probably an old article
As you. Hear. Here's the copyright I was talking about Stan
Yeah.
Jonathan Drews is on here with, he might know or no who would know
Cool.
He's muted, though
I've been hearing a little bit about something called Eb Cash Fs.
I think it's like brand new. I think it's just hit Alpha
A month or 2 ago, so it's not even in the kernel yet, but supposedly the performances significantly better than like ext 4 xfs, but I don't know if it.
Has any of the fancy features, like better Fs.
Does as far as snapshots, or anything, or compression, or anything
Jay. Here, here's an important point on butter versus Z.
If I read it.
Good at see that, Cal, you know copy on right is hard concept.
I've looked at a couple of times in the last few days, and it's not sure that I really understand it.
But I think it relates to what you were explaining earlier.
How that does the snapshots
Yeah, it's basically until you change your block. The disk is unchanged.
Right
Once you want to change a block on disk. The original copy is flagged with the snapshot of a belongs to, and then a new.
Copy is created and flag for the current snapshot
Right
So copy on right means when you want to write something and make a copy of it, and then leave the original as part of that snapshot, and then the copy is part of the current.
Snapshot.
Hmm.
I guess if you, if you have a file on disk and you change that file butterfs won't actually change the file, it will make a copy of the file, and then it'll say the modified copy by the way the original still there in the snapshot
Except that is more granular than that. What's preserved is the block or the chunk within the block, and then the current version gets a copy of that along with reference to everything else
So so basically the current snapshot when a block is changed or a chunk has changed, has one block in a the next change.
2 blocks, an exchange, 3 blocks, an exchange, 4 blocks. So the current snapshot only has data that has changed compared to the previous snapshot
That might be a better way to think of thinking of it.
Oh, shit my my update is caught up with me.
Sorry about that.
Hmm.
Alright. You make anything else.
Not I, said Ralph Poppin.
Going once going twice.
I'm just gonna add them that wow! This is really been a nice.
I think we
My pleasure. Gary, you wanna do it? Do the tail first
I open a lot of information. Thank you very much, Lee.
Shut her down. Gary
Okay. We're gonna we'll get to turn off the recording here.
Thank you, everyone for coming. Thank you, everyone for the good questions and comments.
This is been. The Thursday, November the seventeenth, 22, St.
Louis Linux User group the log and our presentation tonight was about better.
Fs Bt. Rfs was done by Lee Lambert, and we've had a wonderful time.
And with that, we're gonna turn the recording off.
Thank you very much.