I can do that. Record, Okay. Evening folks, this is the November Wednesday the eighth meeting, general meeting on the St.
Louis Unix users group. We have Stan doing the. Tutorial and I've lost a web page so I don't remember the title.
Stan, what's your topic?
Yeah.
I don't remember either. What did I have for breakfast? Oh, oh, script recording. Oh, so.
Hi. Go for it.
If I can remember how to turn on sharing my screen, well, I'll go, give me a second here, I need to go.
I was babbling about about other things and I forgot to get ready. So that's just the way I am.
Let me turn on this, that the other script recording. And that.
Slide sorted.
Okay.
I lost the button. Where'd the button go?
Button button who got the button?
Hi, Stan.
Yeah, hi Steve. Yeah.
Now that's no good. That's not what I need.
There it is. Share, share screen. Okay.
Well, it's supposed to be there, but it's not, though I'm gonna share this thing.
Looks like it worked.
Do the whole thing and then I'm gonna jump over Here. Alright. Excellent. Yeah, this is this is 8 November.
How about that script recording? I made some slides here to talk about this thing Introducing myself, I'm Stan Reichardt.
I'm also the vice president of the slug. It oops.
This is the wrong show. No, it's not. Yeah, this script recording. Says off so often the recording there.
I got the wrong slide here. Well, part of it that I'm a benefit. Benevolent Dictator of Life of the New Linux Organization also.
I'm cranky and arbitrary profane, politically incorrect old. You name it, it's all.
I'm a Linux, well, almost a bigot there. And I wear belt and suspenders.
So. Who uses scripts? It's commonly used. script taking technique used by people is They take their history.
And in Unix Linux and they dump it out and they can feed that into a file and by managing it they can make a little sort of program it runs.
And it's a in a your hidden history. File. This was frequently extracted. So if you're interested, you know, if you don't know anything about that, you should look at the.
Man page for history, either man or info or P. And using script and affiliated commands are not well known.
I've known about it for a long time. And so if you don't know about it, you don't use it.
But as far as I know, it's on Unix and Linux and I don't know about other operating systems, although I guess that Windows thing.
And Windows, subsystem for Linux. I guess that's got it in there too.
Because it seems to be a pretty much of a Unix utility. Now there's 3 related commands that you're interested.
If you just were to do an apropos and look for Script, it would dump out a hundred 21 file names.
But the one that is relative. Are these 3 right here? And the the one called script is for creating the script And then the script replay is the one that I've been able to figure out because I think they've changed it since I used it years ago.
I wasn't paying that much attention to it. But there's this script live thing I've read.
It says rerun the session typescripts using, the timing information. I think what that means is that it's, it allows you to rerun the actual, Commands and time them just like when you originally did your capture of the script thing the purpose is essentially to document what you do and as far as building executable scripts.
Using that well, I think you just, I think it, well, it keeps the visible, provides you with a visible history.
I I haven't been digging back into it long enough to remember whether or not or even figure out if you can take that file that it creates and and export that into a file and then make us a executable script.
Program out of it. Why use it? Well, it captures what you type.
Hey, captures the results. So if you type PS, it gives you the results of PS.
You pipe the ID, it gives you the results of that command. And it can be played back in real time.
You can you can set the timing on so it keeps time with what you did. Otherwise, it just kinda bang bang bang bang bang and it goes real fast.
So, and also it can prove what you did. You know, if they, you know, I've, remember reading this some.
Teachers had their students run script this to show that they did their homework. You know, that they actually did went in and did whatever.
And then They have them said their their their script files back to it. That's something I read in the past.
And it can it can be used where there's no graphical environment or GUI. It kind of works with some of the, and curses stuff.
So I'm in my demos, I'll probably, I'll show you some of the things that it does work with.
And it works across the simple, SSH connection. That's really good. You know, we're on servers.
Cause it's in the utilities. Unix utilities. When do you use it?
Well, you definitely first thing you want to know is you do not use it when you're going to be using graphical user interface tools.
Some of the things that you think of as graphical tools will work. Discuss what they call and curses.
I'm not sure about defining that for somebody that's not. How to define that for somebody is not familiar with the with and curses.
It's so if you've been around forever like like myself and Wheel over here in the corner and the guy over there that on the other side of the room named fire.
We've been around a while and, and, and I'm older, this guy named Dirt over here, it's standing up looking at me real with cross eyes.
But the. If you've been around a while you'll you'll you'll kind of know about the incurses stuff.
They're graphical things that that allow you to navigate within the screen like like VI does, you know, although I'm not real sure.
How well VI or VM works with it. There's, I tried some later today that had some problems that I wasn't aware of but Maybe that's just in unique elements of of the VIV.
You should severely limit yourself to just trying to do command line stuff. And when you want to do something more, use something like the simple screen recorder where it completely captures your screen and graphically and you make a video.
Of it. And if you're interested in that. I think it was what in October I think it was the same my notes here.
Yeah, 2020 October, I did a presentation on. On using simple screen recorder. And so, but when, when to use scripts when you wanna do more than just what's in your history file, you, so you.
Your history file just gives you the list of the commands you ran. With script, it gives you the results that you got when you ran that command.
So on a server. Okay, I've got some excess noise here. Somebody needs to be muted.
On a server, you're not gonna wanna load the graphical tool, so you're not gonna have simple screen recorder over there.
Although you would have it on your PC workstation. When you need sound quickly, it usually already installed and it's safely used within terminals run within GUI session.
So if you're running a GUI like I am. We're on the Linux, it's one of the applications is pops up is a terminal and then the terminal you can have multiple multiple, tabs of terminals.
And that's, that works great within those. And it's like I said, it's available as part of the UTL Linux package.
And it's it's been the Linux kernel archive. But it's not always automatically installed.
I read that somewhere, but I, my experience, it's always been there, usually available. But, but then I didn't always want to use it.
So there may be situations where it wasn't there and I didn't realize it. No big deal.
The GUI alternatives in the past I use proprietary packages on. A Microsoft Windows XP so long ago.
I don't even do members name or kitten or care. I think it was something like snag it.
That might have been the name of it. But that was like 50 bucks and then the And I was always really cheap, never wanted to buy anything.
And lived without it. My full screen capture choice is the simple screen recorder. I mean, there's in there's a link to the guy that does it.
It's upon GitHub and so forth. Joe Cole and CZI linux.com guy recommends and uses is this that package for creating his videos.
And that's where I found out about it by some watching his videos. It is free Linux only as far as I know and it's in used with Dex window systems.
But I'm not sure what's gonna happen when whaling comes along. Where whether or not this gonna be a real problem with it.
You know, we'll find out as we go along. And as far as other alternatives, if you if you look up script And, and there's like a hundred 14 alternatives listed on the alternative to.net file.
Website.
Now, how to get started? Well, I recommend you read the friendly manual. Both demand pages and and As always, if there's any info pages, I don't.
That the way I remember that acronym.
It's a friendly manual. Yes, greed to friendly manual. Some of the people that suggest you do that are not that friendly, but what the heck?
And, I don't, you, you can do info and it'll take you to the man page.
So. I use the PNF because it's it links between alternative references.
Alright, like I said earlier, I did the Apple Pro on script and it got 121 results and to wait and I went to and looked at all of those or at least the names and descriptions of it.
And got down to a thing called script and each one of them are in their definition talks about a thing called Typescript.
So in the man page, it refers to Typescript. So that's and then. So that's what you're actually creating.
And this is the example from the script replay. Man page and it just right here it shows example of this example.
It shows up a percent sign that's the prompt that for this this session. You said this command is script in a day stage log, dash time, and it's a file name.
And then they stays log out is the actual script, the output script. So when you when you run that that line it'll come back and respond with this script is started file is script out because that's what you told it you told it, file is script out because that's what you told it.
You told it also to create a timing file. In this case it was filed about PM. And then at the, it shows the prompts of everything you do, LS.
Date, etc, etc. When you're done, you type exit. And the script will respond with script is done, file the script out.
Then to reply it, you say the command is script replay. Dache, so log dash timing and then that.
Timing file name, whatever you named it. file.tm or you can call it Billy Bob dot.
Texas if you want it wanted to or or just Billy Bob or Mary Jane whatever you want to call it and then the day stage log dash log out and that the script dot out file whatever you had named that that file.
And it'll replay it. Now. Next slide. The example from Script Live.
It didn't look right to me. And I, This some testing with it. And I do not understand the results exactly.
It didn't look right. I've got one example I'll show in the demos later.
And it's a little bit scree. It looked to me like they have a typo in their in their out in their example.
Whereas, the first line, well, I actually do the same kind of thing with the No, they do the same kind of thing, but they completely.
Copied it and On their replay, they say Script Live, they stage log base time file. Dot.
The timing file the same as there they created it. But then they give it a different name for the for the, the log, file.
They say logged in in script.in. I kinda read the, the, the, the man page and it kinda.
Talks about it's going to replay.
Live is gonna I got the idea is trying to do redo exact it's gonna have what you captured in there actually Recreate what you did.
Kind of. That seems kind of strange to me. Maybe this kind of a a semi, executable script that you're creating.
I don't know. But now this next 2 slides here, slide 1314, as to how to capture.
You know, I started, I thought the lady is the things you're gonna have to talk about, how to get started example and build your own scripts and how to save and exit and how to abort if you screw up how to fix it.
What's the right to how to write the code respect? I'm going to leave that all as an exercise for the people watching this.
This video because I think just by going to the demo that I'm got that maybe you'll understand.
That and and how to do the playback. Now these are extraneous files I probably should have just thrown them away but I thought I'd tell you that I was thinking about doing much more and making a much longer presentation but this is gonna be long enough.
So we're gonna go right in to the demonstration examples. Okay. And. After after that We're gonna go to the questions.
Okay. Well, let's jump out of here. And let's see, get out of here.
I'm gonna go to my command line. Now, just be good. I brought up for those that are looking at that's what's going on here.
I've got some sub shells I got.
I got the or I'm gonna have show the man page for script
There's a separate man page for script. There's a separate. Man page.
Or, script.
Replay.
Yes, where I got the first set of examples. And a man page.
Wrong button.
Script Live.
What is it? Script.
Nice. And I spell it wrong.
There it is. Okay, just wanted to show you there's 3 separate man pages, but whatever.
You should go read the friendly man pages. Okay, and maybe somebody can give me a better explanation of what that script live thing is, but I'm gonna go ahead and do, go to the demos I've got set up here.
I've got a bunch of them except in
I've got most of them set up in the demo one directory here. Got a few of them.
And if the, really the shortcut for running starting is script.
Is instead of that long title there is the dash capital T is for your timing file. And you give it whatever name you want.
Yeah, whatever.
That timer. And then a day oh or your
Whatever. Alright, out, whatever. Now if I run that, oops. I spell script proper.
They Phil's not here, is he? You're supposed to correct me when I make these mistakes, Phil.
Okay. Okay. That started it right there, okay? And if you go do some entries, I'm going to do a date here.
And just to show you what all you can do, you know, we would do stuff like, the ID or PS, PWD.
You know, the typical kind of commands. And
Yeah, all the different kind of commands.
And,
Route.
Yeah, go ahead. I know you're just typing demo stuff, but, or. Example stuff in there.
What?
But you make the font larger?
Won't you buy some new good glasses, Gary?
Yeah.
Control shift.
That big enough for you.
Better, thank you. Much better.
Thank you.
Alright, whatever. And then you get to see you getting the responses back and all along here. You can even do something like.
Okay.
You know, some of this bigger stuff. Boom, look at all that. Whoa. Is that going to be captured?
That almost looks like the incurses stuff, whatever. I don't know. Anyway, and then I'm gonna say date and do a little echo.
Done. With.
And then, exit. Oh, okay. If I list what I've got there, it created 2 files there.
It created that whatever dot out and the whatever dot timer file. Okay. Now in order to replay that I'm going to do this script.
Replay.
Nash, T, T for timer. Give it the name of the whatever. That timer file.
And the, then a dash capital for the. The output is going to be the whatever.
Dot out file right there. And if I run this.
Yeah.
And take it. Fingers off the keyboard now, folks. Okay, la, da, da, da, da, Who's typing that?
Somebody type date, nurse the date. And that's not the time now. That was 2 min ago when it started.
And there's the ID that came up. I typed PS. Pwd.
Whatever. What else did I do? Did kill it? No, I guess not.
Of main speaker.
Sir.
Hey, Stan. The date command that it replayed did it also show again the old output or did it rerun the date command and give you fresh current output.
This is the old old stuff.
This is the old stuff.
Okay, now why would I'm curious.
I think the script live is the one is supposed to rerun the program and give you the current stuff.
Oh, okay.
I think. That's the way I read. That's the way I read. The the thing.
Boom. Okay.
But I, when I did it, I might have screwed something up and it looked like it was broken or something to me so I didn't it didn't it the command lines didn't the lot the spacings didn't work right and Whatever.
Though I concentrated on the on the script replay. I got that to work. Works for the demos.
So. I want to see. Now I got a whole bunch more of these demos right here. But we're coming on up on 7 o'clock.
So this is short base. You don't read anything else. So at this point, time right now.
We can go back and there any any or more questions I can try to answer.
Any more questions?
I guess not. Okay.
I'll.
At this point.
We'll talk about the, this is the go, this is the, the gooey middle part.
Yeah.
Sequence events for the St. Louis, group, users group, normal meetings. Okay. About us?
Anybody doesn't know? We meet in second Wednesday of each month. We're an IRS 501 c 6 designated non-profit professional association dedicated to education communications for computer users, guys.
Okay, get students, hobbyist, retirees, network experts, professionals. People that do BSD, Linux, Windows.
Pre open source software, other projects. Products and services, you know. We meet, we met since about what, July of 1992?
Yep, seems to be.
That's what I think. What I've been told, is that right, Gary? All our meetings free and open to the public.
There's no individual member free. Membership phase and that's because we're here at the.
Right?
Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. I skipped it.
Go back, test one slide, go back to the slide you were just on. If anyone, if anyone's curious, the 500, and one c 6, the business association, that does mean that yes, you can make contributions.
They're not charitable contributions. But they are business deductions so any of you who a representing a company or own a company or do some business on the side.
Contribution to slook is a legitimate business deduction so
Oh, by the way, Gary, you're supposed to say who you are. You're supposed to say, Gary, I, I'm Gary.
I'm Gary.
I'm Introduce yourself. Okay. One liner say, Gary, what do you do?
I am a computer consultant. I used to work for St. Louis University. I used to work for Edward Jones.
I used to work for Willtell.
And then, keep it short. You're the president, okay? Keep it sharp. Don't run for election here.
Okay.
Okay. Oh yeah. He has need to run for election.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's true. I put him on the ballot and everybody votes for him. Because nobody else wants it.
Hey, he's dying to be impeached. He really is.
Yeah. I gotta start. Okay.
Anyway, the agenda for our meetings is that we need central daylight time from 6 to 6 30 is arrival time test your chat microphone sound screen sharing and all that Then we start with the base topic with the questions.
So I hit, nobody had any questions, so we're in a gooey middle here. Introductions?
No. Lee, when you talk, introduce yourself. So say, Lee, I'm, you know, blah, blah, blah, make it short, kind of a one or 2 liner.
Make it shorter than what Gary did. Okay.
Okay. Hi, my name is Lee. I live in a back.
Here we go. Hey, and what this you don't need to say anything more? That's all the magic right there.
And then about 7 15 or so well we're gonna try and do a call for help and then talk about some of the other stuff and then go on to the main topic.
After the meetings, the further discussions is possible. Also on our mailing list and The recording, we're bringing recorded now, so that that'll that chat and the slide work or normal video stuff will be up on archive in a couple of days.
So where are we? Bas topic agenda here, introductions. And, these are also the treasure.
We have a vacancy for secretary. Anybody volunteer?
I don't hear anything. Any announcements? Well, daylight savings time ended on Sunday.
So, and next 8 days from now. Next week Thursday the stateless Linux meeting 5 days after that, will be the new Linux meeting.
The fourth Tuesday of the month. But any other announcements?
Go ahead.
I've got a few. Let's see, last summer, Google announced that inactive Google accounts We're going to be deleted.
So their target date to begin deleting them is the first of December. My understanding, but don't take me as gospel that what they consider to be inactive is if you haven't been on the account or done something with it in 2 years.
It's going to be considered an inactive account. So you have roughly 3 weeks. Either get your account active or store it or whatever and I point this out because I know a lot of people both because of business or family or friends.
You know, people have an Android phone and it would be shoving photographs out there and people. You know, just always figured, oh yeah, someday I'll go back and get those photos.
So I know a lot of people who inadvertently archived a bunch of photos out there and some of people just figure it'll always be there.
Yeah.
December the first it may start disappearing. Different announcement. In honor of our speaker this evening doing the Windows subsystem for Android.
This Sunday, 3 days ago was the sixteenth anniversary of Android being released. So happy birthday to Android.
It can now drive itself, I guess. Let's see, coming up in the future. In 2 and a half weeks is the Amazon AWS reinvent conference.
It is physically being held in Las Vegas, AWS, reinvent conference. It is physically being held in Las Vegas.
So you have just over 2 weeks if you're gonna try and actually physically go. I haven't checked to see if you can go remotely via zoom or something like that.
So I did put it on the calendar. It's November the 20 seventh through December the first.
It's a 5 day conference. And so check it if AWS, we get about interest you.
And I've heard it's a good conference, so. And lastly, but not least, November the fifteenth every year is GIS Day.
Geospatial information systems day in the days before the pandemic. It was a common practice for a wash you.
Or, what's the name of that company that does mapping systems up in St. Charles?
Sure, back. Could be. Anyway, usually there would be some sort of all day conference somewhere in St.
Louis that had a whole bunch of all day conference somewhere in St. Louis that had a whole bunch of interesting talks.
Either about you know how GPS systems work or Just all sorts of good technical information. I haven't yet checked to see if anything is going on this year on November the fifteenth but look around and if you see anything it looks interesting send a note to editor.
At slew.org and we'll try and put it on the calendars. And that's all the announcements I have.
Oh, another announcement for December the first. This just coming in. Ron, stand by. I have to read it.
Are you looking for your glasses, Gary?
Pounding on the keyboard, which is taking its, yeah, I'm doing the classic stupidity.
I double-click on the on the thing and so it proceeds to bring it up and then immediately drop it.
So. And Ron posted this to everyone, so. All routers made in China, so all routers.
Must be configured to support and default to IPv 6. This might help boost global IP 6 deployment.
That's for their internal usage. They want 700 million IPv 6 users real soon now.
So that's a,
December first announcement.
Yeah, that's just for anybody who is interested in or cares at all about IPv 6 deployment.
We've been told it's just around the corner now for a heck of a long time.
Back in March or April, Chinese authorities apparently looked around and thought we're lagging behind an IPv 6 and I imagine that they could consume all IPv 4 space if it they you know and some if IPv 6 didn't exist so back in around April they said That's it.
We are going to. Mandate that this be the default on all products sold as of December the first and here we are what 6 7 8 months later and It is about to become reality.
So It, it may help. In increase IPv 6 deployments worldwide. I don't know.
I'm kind of curious on if anybody here has got IPv 6 or uses it.
I have put some stuff on IPv 6 and so yeah it's It's been dependable.
I didn't look to see if Dave Forrest is already in attendance tonight. But Dave Forrest, has both, done a number of presentations on IPv 6.
Dave's not here.
Yes.
Yeah. He's not here. Sorry. A customer that wanted to use his services in China.
So he was forced to set up B 6 just so they could see his website. That's right.
I remember that. Yeah.
They actually, they talked about this on the most recent episode of 2.5 admins podcast, which is a Well, that was 2 fairly regularly and they were speculating whether or not like the Chinese manufacturers would change the default for the Skews that were being sold outside of China.
Because you know theoretically they're having to you know, change the defaults anyway to have like the language be not Chinese and so since they're already, you know, putting different firmware on the models that are leaving China are being sold outside of China.
Maybe they would just change the default to still be IPv 4 for all those markets. Cause I imagine.
You know 2.5 admins what they were saying is a lot of the ISPs at least the commercial ones here.
The residential ones here in the US. Don't necessarily support IPv 6, internally, you know, like, you can't, Like if you have IPv 6 router, it won't just talk IPv 6 to your modem.
So. At least that's how mine is. Mine set up for IPv 4 D HCP.
So I can't use it. On that on that link but anyway just some extra context around that I thought it was interesting too
As I believe. Charter or spectrum they our IPv 4 only. Though I haven't looked at that very much, but it kinda seems that way, cause that's all I ever get from them.
Yep, same here.
So. So what?
Was ever trying to talk, he was really garbled.
Yes.
It's Tyler.
Oh.
Now, t, tile, you're breaking up pretty bad. We're here one word out of 5.
I think Tyler's on IPv 3. You need to upgrade.
Yeah.
Yeah. Tyler, we're basically getting syllables from you at this point.
Is Yeah, is, is this go right into our call for help session? Okay.
Not much we can do. That's from
Nice. I suppose it does. I think we've covered all, you know. Unfortunately, it sounds like this call for help might require a physical.
Reboot. Yeah.
Assistance.
We're not getting anything.
Any other? Call for help. I don't mean to cut Tyler off but until we get a
Oh. Oh.
There's a few syllables again.
Okay, Tyler, if we ever run you, we'll let you cut in. If there's something.
You want to alert us to right away, but it didn't chat maybe and that we will know what you got.
Yeah, anybody else have a call for help question? And by the way, there will be. Time probably after our main speaker this evening to pursue more call for help but if you want to kind of catch the the early crowd there may be somebody here who knows what you need
Just to point out, we have the presentation archives. This there's length on our all of our pages.
That's it. You can say WI, ww.org resources presentations and it'll take it to that.
We also have a calendar. And our sponsored events are highlighted in red. Hmm.
I'm not sure I can bring it up right now. I'm kind of
Whatever. And we also have mailing lists. Like to point out we also have well or mailing list.
There are announcement mailing lists and discuss. For general discussions and opinions, questions and so forth. People that want to help steering committee mailing list every opinion counts we'd like to have some more people show up at the steering committee meetings.
Instead of just talking to ourselves, we'd like to talk to people that attend our meetings and get some input.
Or other, special interest groups. Like I said, the next week, St. Louis Linux uses group that Linux presentations.
The first Thursday the month is slack meeting is the configuration workshop It's agnostic as far as hardware and software.
If we get anybody that knows what they're talking about, the Beyond Me or Phil. Would be appreciated because, we're kind of running in on people that, Know about the hardware and software.
But do we have people show up that need help? And then of course next says. Tuesday the fourth Tuesday the month I run the beginner workshop for Linux users, new Linux users group.
And And we're going to go into our main topic.
Come on up here. And, I'd like to point out we depreciate it the presenter sent any notes and PDFs and scripts and slide work.
To editor@slug.org for our archives. Besides the recording that we do. Presenter may at the beginning ask.
The audience holder questions to the end or he may say just interrupt him as he goes along. It's up to him.
Afterwards, after that, the general discussions of other topics can happen, as Gary mentioned earlier.
Any feedback? Questions about this?
I have another announcement.
Go ahead, Ed.
This week. Or excuse me, in a little under 2 weeks on November 20 first.
Is the semi bug, the south eastern. Michigan BSD users group. Meeting and, that's a, meeting and, The topic is gonna be on a new show.
No, John.
And Given the new show presentation before on the St. Louis Linux. A couple of months ago I think and this is gonna be a slightly different one it's gonna be more hands on So.
Just thought I'd mention it.
You know, every time I hear about the Southeast Michigan, BSD user group, I always wonder like, Is there like a Southwest Michigan BSD Unix group and you had to like differentiate the 2 or seems real specific.
I don't understand that his, that. I, you know, maybe if Jonathan was around, maybe he could, he's the moderator of the Jonathan Drews is a moderator and he only just recently took over.
So I don't know. I mean, as far as I know, There's very few BSD users group.
There's one in there's a couple in Canada. And other ones around. But anyway, yeah, so I don't know.
Yes, semi bug is the acronym as Ron pointed out or whatever, right? So I've only really been involved with him for about, I don't know.
A year or so.
I'm, this is Stan. I'm quickly showing the calendar. It they used to be predominantly face-to-face meeting in St.
Louis and we used to have before the pandemic lacked locked down we would have anywhere between a hundred and 20 and a hundred 70 face to face meetings of some kind of technology or language or computer stuff and here in St.
Louis beer and pizza. We're abound. Also notice that the red colored things are the sponsored groups.
I'm not sure that I can, let me see if I can do this. Yeah.
Okay, up here at the. Top corner where it says agenda little triangle there. If you click on that you can turn off all the other stuff.
And just see this. Slug stuff, they're all the red stuff. Yay! And
May I want to bump the font a couple times, Stan?
She must, you know, if you want to see the calendar, look at the tag on calendar. Good grief.
Yeah.
There you go. There you go. Perfect. You mean you're doing a teaser?
I don't know, she's Anyway, and so that Where'd it go? That's stop working on me.
Anyway, the These are mostly the St. Louis local events and these are the remote and online events.
It's kind of a mixture things, whatever. But anyway, that's that's our calendar.
And I'm gonna stop sharing my calendar and Gary you need to Deal with what's come on up.
Okey doke! All right. For those of you who may have Then here back in September, we had John Newbolt, from, Microsoft did a wonderful presentation on Windows subsystem for Linux.
The more recent information was about version 2. And so he told us about what makes it different and no it's not you know there's still purposes you might want to use version one and there was also part of the talk was about Windows for Linux GitHub.
So a lot of good information. That talk. Really appreciated it. And there is the slides and the.
Recordings of the talk are out on our archives. So if any of you missed it or wanted to refresh yourself about it.
Go look on the archives and you can find it. But we again have them this evening. And tonight he's going to talk to us about Windows subsystem for Android.
And tell us all about that. I'm going to ask John 2 questions. If anybody has any follow up questions from, if anybody has any follow-up questions from Windows for Linux talk back in September.
Windows for Linux talk back in September, Windows for Linux talk back in September. I'm gonna guess it probably be more appropriate to ask those specific questions at the end your talk this evening, John.
Yes.
Sure, yeah, I think I can feel them probably at any time. I'm flexible.
Okay. And the other thing, and I think you may have in point to answer that, is do you prefer questions or wait till the end and you just prepare people to say, hey John, I got a question.
Let's have the questions just as they come. Let's have it be a bit of a conversation.
I think that's a bit more comfortable and less formal. Cause this is after hours for everyone, hopefully.
Fantastic. As I said, John is a Microsoft employee. So, he be the man who knows all about these good things.
Yeah
And, curiosity, where are you physically located, John? You here in St. Louis?
Great.
Hi, yes, sir. I am in St. Louis. I met a couple of you guys down at the, at my office, the technologies and I don't remember exactly who that was, but, you guys are welcome any time.
Yep.
Come and shake hands and I'll give you a tour. But yeah, as I mentioned earlier, name's John Nuolt.
I've been with Microsoft around a year and a half or so now. My backgrounds in Fintech Finn serve.
I've been in site reliability engineering platform engineering really can't been playing around as a technologist since it was very young.
8 old now. So it's been, I've seen a lot. Super excited about this particular topic today.
Windows subsystem for Android so if there's not any questions on the subsystem for Linux portion of it.
I'll get started, but I'll pause for a minute just if anything.
Cool. Okay, I just, made a little some slides here with co-pilot just for fun.
Hmm.
Just can I give a little bit of a walk through before I do some of the show and tell.
So if you've not heard of Windows subsystem for Android. You know, here's a kind of a little synopsis of it.
It's an emulation layer. It leverages hypervisor technology on your operating system so if you are you know if your hardware lacks virtualization you're gonna have a tough time into what it does is just kind of an emulates an arm architecture leveraging a kind of custom Linux container that runs.
It integrates. Because you know the nature of it it has deep integration with the operating system.
Networking file systems, things like that. Usually, you know, for the most part, feel seamless and can browse them with fairly native tools that being like Windows Explorer or using the kind of native Android file, which I'll show you here in a minute.
It does, because of the fact that it is virtualized, you are able to run, you know, simply the If you're familiar with the Android or Java development, think the new app X packages, you're able to leverage some newer Android X build architectures that you know have both ARM and X.
64 Byte code bundled into them. It's really pretty slick in that, you know, because of the deep level of integration.
You are able to benefit from things like having a single antivirus utility. So when this you know case on my machine Windows Defender is you know when the kernel Call is made to you know rewrite through the file system Defender is able to kind of step in and scan.
Those things in real time for me. Also being able to set things like exclusions. In defender or have kind of if you're familiar with Dev drives the ability to have a kind of truncated feature set for Defender.
In the sake of speed and efficacy. Yeah, pretty neat, technology, something you're not really gonna see deeply integrated into other offerings like.
Blue stacks or knocks if you've seen any kind of other Android. Packages, things that are.
A bit more for the end user rather than. Google's Android development studio.
If you've used Android Development Studio, it is, I mean, if you're an Android developer, you're likely using it unless you do some, you know, independent software vendors.
Java or Kotlin or whatever, you know, whatever language development video you're using.
It's very neat. You can complete any number of Android emulators and, you know, run them in kind of a windowed environment and run applications on them and connect using the ADB or Android debug bridge.
And, you know, manipulate. You know, grab, stack, you know, related information.
Do, you know, kind of deep hardware debugging like one might do on a, you know, something like a mobile platform.
You can do, you know, those things. With both. Google's offering and Windows subsystem for Android.
Pretty neat. And Windows subsystem for Android has a little bit of deeper integration because it's just the nature of how it works.
You can actually run testing software, think like selenium to perform some kind of unit testing or you know end user experience testing in a programmatic manner rather than having to do it manually.
So just kind of some of the need to need features in Windows, for Android. The similar to one of the subsystem for Linux there is kind of a translation layer in the middle.
Okay.
In the case of when the subsist for Android it's called angle. And it handles translating the different API calls for the window management and graphics hardware.
So kind of being it. Essentially supports or enables your Windows Subsystem for Android applications to have hardware acceleration.
So kind of better than software or better than CPU bound graphics rendering. You get, you know, direct access to system and network as I mentioned earlier.
So being able to in my window or I'm sorry in my Android application my Android operating system it sees a stable network.
Connection that's physical. You can emulate wireless, emulate GPS, you know, things like that.
So if you think playing Pokemon Go and being able to manipulate where you your character is, you know, in that case of that game, an augment or reality game, you're your person and your ability to capture and take, you know, basis or whatnot in the game.
You could just do it all digitally, initially before they add any sort of checking for that.
Sure.
Hey, John. When you, said the, This allows better graphic processing. So if I am using it for development work.
How do I guard against? Being too sloppy in other words you know i do i really want to have superiographic performance if putting together something that's supposed to run on an Android phone
Yeah, you have the ability to instrument the guest operating system and you can dynamically allocate resources to it so similar to other virtualization platforms to use the paradigm of save like.
Full on PC, one VCPU, 2 gigs of RAM, that sort of paradigm.
Directly, analogous within Windows subsystem for the Android. I'll just kind of flip over a little bit to some of the settings.
So being able to specify which GPU I'm using inside of the virtual machine. Being able to specify how much in terms of physical resources it has.
This is how you would constrain the emulation engine to meet. I believe what you're asking is how do I mimic real world settings and not, you know, my 40, 90 and I, 7, you know, which would not be real life and so on.
Yeah.
That's what I was basically asking. And why are you there? Can you kick up the font size on that just a little bit?
Yeah, it's so funny. I did change my, displacing up to like 225, but I have a 4 K display as you can see.
Okay.
So it's. Large. Hopefully that's visible because I don't know if I can get too much larger.
Okay. Okay.
Still being able to use it. Yeah, so, okay, I'll just go and dive into some of the other show and tell because the, you know, slide, no one really wants PowerPoints.
I'll just kind of skim through them. 50,000, some Android applications are supported at this point.
You can grab it from the Windows store. So if you're, you know, looking to grab it and play along, you would just come in and search for the Amazon App Store, I think.
Would be what you would search for. If you, I'm sure you can imagine what sort of political, things would, you know, cause 2 organizations to not support each other, but for some reason the partnership is with the Amazon app store.
It is possible to Sideload other app stores as you can see, but if you if you're looking for the kind of a official from Microsoft Wade path to install this in an easy manner.
Open a Microsoft store. Grab this. If you do a little bit of Web searching, you can also find GitHub repos that allow you to download a full bundle of Windows subsystem for Android and includes additional things like super user access.
And additional app stores as you can see. While I have the follow explore up, kind of as I mentioned earlier, those deep, resource level integrations if you notice these are image files I believe they are Just look at see what the file system type is.
Let me know.
Vhd X's. So you, can mount them, using any. You know, typical.
Hypervisor, you can mount them in Hyper B, you can mount them in virtual box, whatever, you know, I can, as you can see, I can mount them directly in Windows Explorer.
These if you are familiar with Android file system, these are, the file systems that are part of your, you know, slash.
Basically your root tree from root forward on the Android file system they are separate partitions, some are non volatile, some are volatile in this case in the emulation they're all just VHD X's that can be manipulated so if you're looking to say perform backup or something like that it's it's as easy as just making a copy or backing these files up.
Now if you wanted to do something in the actual file system itself you would just use you know traditional Android debugging tools ADB, or the Android debug, Bridge.
Allows you to connect to and drive and view. Think like, console port or serial port level logging.
If you so, are being able to observe the CPU during, you know, boot up and things like that, over ADB.
So yeah, file system. Yeah, street structure, structure, file system tree here.
This is the A for mentioned, release that I kind of alluded to earlier if you do a little bit of searching.
So this, I have full super user or root access into this, which is useful. There's no blowware or kind of.
Dial home style. Where that's added, yeah, into it like some of the other emulator options.
If you're familiar with Enjoyed kind of look and feel this probably looks familiar to you.
I'm not I'm not using a touch screen but this you know would be no has normal kind of a touch interface.
Look and feel to it. This is the size of, you know, the VHD. Well, that you can see here, so it's.
Thin provisioned in that it's you know not actually a hundred 27 gigs nor is it 256 gigs in size.
But it's kind of a traditional Android file system structure. And as I mentioned earlier, you can see that the the device thinks that it's on Wi-Fi.
It has, you know, if I were to kind of dig around in it, it has a loop back interface that has.
Should have installed a terminal, in here. It's running Android 13 I think so not exactly bleeding edge but still up there in the API.
So not exactly bleeding edge, but still up there in the API, version. So if you are, an Android developer, it's reasonably modern.
If you need super super bleeding edge, you're probably obviously using, you know, androids or Google's kind of Deb studio for it or something all those lines.
So. In neat option. For something that comes first party. A positive for a second part kinda Just do a little bit more show and tell any questions or thoughts so far, anything we wanna see.
You had mentioned Developer is a number of times. I'm just curious. I mean, obviously as a developer, an Android developer or Android app developer.
I can see great uses for it. Any any feeling of Are there non developers who are finding this useful tool?
Yeah, so, you know, imagine you are I can think of an example that might be close to home.
I like to play, you know, an Android game on my phone and maybe I want to play also while I'm sitting at my computer but on a much larger nicer display and with you know keyboard and mouse input.
Might be more comfortable and preferable to touch. I can do that. Because now I can run that application and emulate it on my desktop and.
To the Folks that are running the game or whatever application that I'm playing it appears is if I'm on a you know a pixel 5 with you know, the particulars that they're looking for.
You know so I my way that I wanna interact with it is comfortable to me and it's still.
Secure. And if you have used other kind of emulator options that are more commercial or end user, they are come from a, you know, potentially to be a source and are riddled with, additions that, you know, one would consider kind of blow where.
So the you know this is a cleaner first party option for that
And then, you know, being able to leverage app stores and, you know, keeps it in, you know, there are Android applications that are available on the Windows.
Like these quality offerings, some of them, you know, maybe Android and would run in the Windows subsystem for Android.
So opening up an additional kind of Avenue or source for content on. On your desktop as well.
What? You.
Yeah, it's pretty slick. I think it's really neat and, I feel like the, yeah, the level of access.
I mean, so imagine I'm,
And you know, imagine I'm a developer and I'm, you know, I have, you know, maybe doing some sort of load testing or I have, IoT devices that run on ARM and run, you know, Android for low cost.
Maybe I'm instrumenting, you know, moving devices or drones or something on those lines. I could, you know, simulate or emulate, you know, multiple drones.
Workloads via Windows. Subsystem for Android and it just is like, a hypothetical example of something you could do with it.
And have you know kind of more advanced there's several platforms Names escaped me at the moment.
I'll search for it here in in a moment. It's the Jepsen I think from Nvidia.
It is a mini cord device, that's quite small form factor, I think, you know, 6 or 7 inches by 2 or 3 inches low power but is extremely performant.
Not quite for things like Bitcoin mining, but maybe you're doing other. Kind of math you know a number of crunching things like maybe you know code some sort of hash or cipher or you know something like that or maybe you're doing software to find radio and you're doing you know modulation and modulation and something on a really small more portable form vector I could you
know, Dev and play with it on my desktop machine before, you know, deploying it on the actual physical hardware.
Hmm
One thing I use it for is audible because as far as I know, Amazon doesn't make a Windows app for audible and there's no website so the only way I can use it on my computer is through the subsystem for Android.
Yeah, yeah, that's actually great use case. You know, Kindle, I guess, might be another, I, you know, read a lot of Kindle on my, on my phone.
I could, I mean, I think you can go to like read that kindle.com or something and read it in a browser, but I could use the familiar.
Kindle application interface.
Yeah, there's a Kindle app for Windows, but it's not very good in my opinion.
Yeah. And this is a native, you know, Windows system WPF form. And I'm able to kind of see the configuration of the emulator and uninstall or just kind of see what's consuming.
Space in the virtual machine as well as you know shut it off if I want to here's some of the integration for, kind of configuring whether or not I want the, hook for the vendor to fire when there's read and writes, you know, things like that if you are differently able just being able to turn on things like allowing your screen reader to read the you know, kind of child, windows
that are in, you know, in the applications themselves. Different little the deeper integration. Then you know say some of the other other alternatives.
And not being a Java or Android developer. I unfortunately don't have any examples of, developing or.
Or configuring the debug bridge, but it's all easily sourceable on the internet.
So I saw you side loaded the, Play Store there. Do the Google Play services and all that kind of stuff.
Does that work? Do you know?
Sure does. Absolutely. If you, you know, as I mentioned, if you kind of did a little bit of internet searching, there is a number of GitHub rebows that feature.
A build of Windows services for Android with you know with or without the app store or whether without either app store, whether or not you want magic or whatever sort of our super suit, whatever sort of route.
Utility you want on there So there are alternative. Because it is, you know, somewhat open source.
Some people are able to take it and kind of. Fork it and do what they will with it.
Cool. I know, yeah, these are not the most exciting. Slides are we all absolutely shoot those over as soon as I drop off the call here any sort of links and stuff like that.
I've got a few. Links and whatnot that I can shoot over as well.
It's neat. Oh, in your use of it.
I'm gonna say this. How confusing is it to all of a sudden have a keyboard and a mouse as opposed to Just having everything done by touch.
You'd be quite surprised the in like most modern Android devices you can connect a Bluetooth keyboard or mouse to them.
You could just plug them in through the USB interface in the bottom of them. I, I plug mine into my KVM.
And get used to my keyboard. They're all they all natively support multiple input methods. So the IMEs can as long as the Most of the operating system is self supported natively.
There's no guarantee that the application will support that. And because the IME is presented to the.
Application whether or not the input is touch or or a point input or whatnot it They are capable of blacklisting inputs, but because this is an emulated environment, you can just as easily using.
Inulate, touch input and things like that, just like you can emulate GPS and emulate.
Wi-Fi and all the, if you're If you're, a virtualizing the OS, you know, you, similar to say.
A web page, you know, once you deliver it to my browser, I can do whatever I want with it.
If I'm emulating the an operating system, the same kind of applies.
Okay.
That is kind of funny now that you mentioned it like you know like my like for example I have a Samsung Android tablet and it's got the thing where it's got Dex mode where you can basically if you plug it into like a USBC doc like you were saying it like switches into basically Chrome OS.
Okay. Yeah
Similar. And it's just funny how like people are trying to turn tablets into computers and now trying to turn a computer into a tablet kind of the opposite.
Yes.
Way with subsystem for Android here.
Yeah, can't we find one device to rule them all? I want the Yeah, something I'll get some sort of a cerebral in plan.
Yes. Or, well, you know, this is all back from, remember, canonical, you know, decades ago or whatever, tried to do like the whole, you know, convergence thing, you know, that was a big buzzword long time ago.
And so really, I mean, this idea has been around so long just So many different angles to come at it from, you know.
Yeah, they were I remember what they trying to build the it was a bunch for Android and Yeah, I can I remember reading about that.
Yeah, they had an a bunch of phone like they had their own OS like phone OS for a few years.
I don't think I've really. Got off the ground but yeah
Kind of similar to my previous question. What about the hardware that ain't there. For instance, when you're on your phone, There is the GPS.
Access. There's Okay, some sensitivity to what tower you're on. Is that ever caused problems or is that just something that okay if you're gonna be using that kind of stuff?
You have to. Make an effort to cover forward or there's some built in. Fixes that take care of the cell phone specific hardware.
Capabilities.
Yes, you know what you're looking at is you it's kind of what you would like to do with it the ADB in the dB.
Bridge allows you to create and emulate a variety of hardware. Again, if you're a deep deeply technical developer you know you could There's nothing that you couldn't.
Manipulate other than what's really in that runs in the kernel portions of it I'm not a hundred percent on the kernel driver stuff that you would be able to manipulate, manipulate that you would be able to manipulate, manipulate that seeing is that it's signed.
But. Any of the other Android components you should be able to, especially if you're leveraging anything that's a boilerplate API off of ADB, you should have.
No issues. Now how are the application will handle you changing, you know, GPS.
Signal, in our, you know, over drastic distances or something on those lines. I, I don't know.
Would you, you know, similar to. Android you can install. You know, Term or some sort of a terminal emulation.
Application and get a you know a shell on your Android. You know you can do. Port forwarding and you know have kind of If you wanted to, a more featured, Android and solution.
Okay.
Okay. Okay.
Is there a Too much crossover from the Windows subsystem for Linux to Windows subsystem for Android or there any?
Okay.
Yeah, there's a stub or kind of a connector and you can do I mean, some of the obviously the virtualization technology and things like that.
It's. Are similar they're using a container that runs on top of the Windows kernel to you know do the translation layer and that sort of jazz so that you know the technologies are similar.
Okay.
Cool. If there's not any more questions, I'll go ahead and turn it back over.
Thanks, so much for having me, I really appreciate it.
This is really, really interesting. And this and the last time you were here. Opened our eyes to some new possibilities.
Kind of neat to see how things come together. Yeah, really.
Yeah. Absolutely. I will have to. Chat a little bit and see if there's any other topics of interest in the future.
Feel free to she's some things over.
Oh, I gotta ask. What could be the secret X project? So. Golly, G, so you, you manage to put together a subsystem for Linux, a subsystem for Android.
Is there gonna be a subsystem for iPhone?
I have no idea.
Yeah. Okay.
Okay.
Yeah, I'm unfortunately in the sales arms, so engineering is quite distant. I don't get a ton of play from them unless it's in the security or infrastructure space, which is, you know, where I tend to play.
Awesome. I hope you guys have a fantastic evening.
Yeah.
Once again, thank you very, very much. It's amazing that, when you suggested, the need to drop back a month and you know rather new in September and October but moving November little did I realize that you were doing this is a strategic thing just to be here for the birthday, sixteenth birthday and Android.
Yes, it was a long it was a long play
Yeah.
Well, Cindy, thank you guys. You have a good night. I'm gonna, I'm gonna head off here.
Great. Thanks. And by the way, I was one of the guys who was down in your office there back in August.
Okay, alright. Come on down. You guys should we've been getting quite a few folks in for in person events so maybe in the future we could talk about something like that.
Fantastic. Fantastic. Great. Thanks, John.
Awesome. Bye.
Thank you. Oh, by the way, I've got, one more announcement.
Next week on Thursday. Our speaker is going to be talking about. Transport layer security and So mark that on your calendar.
If you want to see the. See if I can bring this up real best. To do standby.
I've only put the abstract out on the all day schedule for next Thursday. Haven't done the the one actually at 6 in the evening yet.
So let's see. This thing's, can you pull up Thursday?
Give me a second. Stan, are you in a convenient place to pull up the calendar and look up Thursday?
Let me try.
Hmm.
Boom, yeah.
Okay. Oh. So if you, mine looks better as black. There we go.
That white stuff burns. Okay, I didn't hit send yet. Okay, now it should be sent.
Do your best work in the dark, do you, Lee?
That's the only way to work. Do a refresh on that calendar.
Yeah.
Yes.
Oh, oh, okay.
Oh
And the red ones there.
Oh yeah, that's the one you want. There we go. No, not that. Next Thursday, there we go.
Yes!
Okay. I guess Stan, you're sharing your screen. Okay, so there it is. Next Thursday.
Transport layer security TLS. It's based on the book. And so sounds like a good technical explanation of just what's going on.
With the security at that level of the internet. So, Could be some really interesting stuff. I'll say read up in advance and it should be a guy we can pepper with a lot of good technical questions.
Michael Lucas is his name. Okay.
Okay.
8 he's got a long history of. Open source. Oh, absolute open BSD.
Heck, that's 20 years old. First edition.
Yeah, and he's brought to us us by Jonathan Drews. Thanks to Jonathan.
He,
Fantastic.
Wanted him to us. Or us to him, whichever you want to look at. And anyone out there in the audience, if you have, inclination to line somebody up for us to have a presentation we'd appreciate it because
Okay.
We're running out of, Gary Clones.
Yeah.
Oh.
Yeah, yeah, I believe that Michael Lucas is the, founder of, but don't call me on that.
Oh, good.
Did I stop scaring my screen now?
The, Stan is now scrolled down into the bio and, showed you some of Michael Lucas's other accomplishments there.
So.
Okay.
Okay, while Stan scrolls that down a little, maybe not. But anybody have any other comments about tonight's talk questions about tonight's talk
Questions about? The state of Microsoft, emulating all this stuff. I wanted it work if you run Windows 11 at a VM.
Perfect.
There you go.
Well, this is an interesting question. Yeah. That way you wouldn't have to put Windows on your hardware.
Yeah.
You in VMs, you can set,
There's a hardware flag that you can toggle to turn on like an emulation. A connection to the I think your bios always has to have.
An emulation flag set. I forget what it's called, but then the most virtual.
Being Vmware and Virtualbox that I'm familiar with. There's a You can set a flag somewhere in the app like in the bios of the VM.
The pass that hardware bit through to the VM.
But basically I think it might work. That's a long winded way of saying it, but Yeah, kind of snoop around for those flags.
Cause I've had virtualization things where I was trying to
Hmm.
Comes on like if you're running things like podman in a virtual machine. That it needs kind of some hardware access.
Yeah.
You need to make sure that's
Good morning. The more interesting question might be, does will Windows 11 run in a VM? That's not on high for me.
Is anybody there yet?
Yeah, I haven't tried that.
I've tried it, it worked.
Okay.
Yeah.
It does? Okay. Hey! Tyler's voice works too.
Well, you know, when you then call in via the phone line and you're not pushing data.
Hey, Lee, I got a question for you.
Shoot.
Do I need to do to get a copy of website.
You mean, this loop site?
Yeah.
Hi.
Just run a tarball out of it. I can do it for you if you want. You want which one do you want.
Okay.
All of them, if you can just give the If it's easy enough, I was going to start playing with something.
If I'm going to do it, I might as well. Work on the sleeve website.
Right. I tell you what, before you start playing with it. Can we go through and at least set up repository so that We can, you know, transfer.
Commits back and forth. Without, without, without.
That's fine. I just
Okay.
Trying to understand what it's gonna take to. With that or deal with that data and how this framework I was looking at.
It.
Okay.
Yeah.
I'll play off of that. A couple of our previous evenings meetings here, we talked about.
Our Server. It's a virtual machine. It's the machine that posts all of our mailing lists Oh, so our web page.
And, embarrassingly enough, we are a couple of releases back on our operating system.
One of the holdups on why we just have in the role of forward. Is the male man list server.
So we have to make sure that we've caught up on all of the ins and outs of Updating that before we update the operating system.
So there's a little bit of, this is one of those things, the difference between.
When you're just taking care of your box at home. Versus if you're working for a small company or a large corporation.
And you got to worry about the multi-user aspects of what you do and upgrade. So, So anyway, we are planning on doing that.
And, we really appreciate. If anybody wants to be part of the team that would go through and
Rather than doing it at these meetings. You know, we're wanna kinda do it. A little work group, whenever people have time.
To look at the different aspects of what we want to upgrade and what order and how we do it.
Yeah.
And then we will. Try and have that work group come back and kinda report one of these meetings. You know, to everybody as an audience.
So, okay, this is what we're going to do for an upgrade. So, but yeah, we need some, we need some worker bees.
It would be nice if the few folks wanted to. Join the party, so to speak, and work on that project.
So. You can either jump up now and say, yeah, me me I want to do it or you can think about it a little bit and you can either contact me or Lee or Stan or somebody let us know you want to be part of the team doing that and we appreciate it.
Most definitely.
Yeah, I've, last time we brought that up, I volunteer and I've actually been looking into that a little bit.
So if you want to discuss it, I have some. Information I could share. Of course I looked it up.
Hmm.
During last month's meeting, saw my information is a month old and I might have forgot half of it but Yeah.
Sure, share some, give people some idea of. Of what we're up against.
Well, first of all, I think we're on, Remind me, Lee, what version of Debian are we on right now?
10, right?
Right, we're on 10 right now.
And 10 is actually supported, I think, well into 2024. So. At least that's what I saw.
Right.
So it's not like we're up necessarily against the gun here. You know, we have plenty of Runway, I would say.
I mean, I guess depending on.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, the biggest issue is 10 to 11 is is not catastrophic because we can still support mailman 2 and on eleventh.
But 11 to 12 is because male man 2 goes away.
Right, and Yeah, it goes away and then. And that's because the Python 2 packages go away, right?
Right.
So then there's like a choice you can make whether you can either find some other way to put Python to on your.
Right.
Like you know but it's not really supported so it's probably not great to run that you know what I mean or upgrade the mailman 3.
But, from what I'm seeing, Mailman 2 to 3 is a very Big transition.
Yeah.
There are.
Yeah.
I think it was like complete rewrite. Of the application to. And like complete re architecture too because I think mailman 3 and I don't know if Tyler still on But I think Mailman 3 is written in Django, but I know Tyler went to Djingo Khan, but that's what he said he was gonna do and so maybe we maybe we get him the jangle us up here a little
bit.
How the the 2 3 schism was because They completely rewrote parts of this code base. So we're just needing to figure out how they migrate to mailman 3.
All right, there's a backup you can up and send my way out. If I can blow it up a couple times in my own environment.
Thank you, Mike.
Well, either that or if we wanted to. I can just school up a VM with, a Bach backup.
We may have some. DNS issues, but. We can just run a VM and play with it.
Looks like you have somebody else in the party.
Alright, alright.
You know.
Are you? Are you guys both on?
No.
I am, but as soon as this, as soon as the upgrades over, I'm dropping it.
Okay.
I don't like email. This is just me. But, but one thing I was thinking too, You know, Mailman 3, you know, I was reading through the docs, for Mailman 3.
And you know, there is, I don't know if it's an official Docker container, but it is a Docker container link to from the official Docks which makes me think it's at least somewhat official.
And so what we could do is we could like Keep Debian 10, right? But then just spin up the mailman 3 Docker images and migrate mailman to Docker or to the Dockerized version of Mailman 3 on Debian 10 right and then once we do that then you know that provides an abstraction layer on top of the OS we can upgrade the OS by all the
way to 12 if we want it you know so that's another strategy I was thinking for The Mailman 3 migration, but.
Okay.
So anyway, that's as far as my research got me, last month during the meeting.
Yeah, then you could harvest all your configuration from that. Container.
Yeah, that would that would make a decent way to check out. Mailman 3, although. I'm not sure we want to do that on B because they're We caught we may run into a lot of problems trying to test it.
You know, if we set it up on a And let's see. No, I guess we could set it up and you know with the separate host name or something like that just so we can test it.
Without breaking our production mail list.
Yeah, and that's part of the
Let me see if I can get. Compute server up and running this week That would give us some extra.
Memory and all my gigabit. Connection at home.
Oh, okay.
And that's part of the problem too is that like the mailman docs assume you have like an MTA like up and running.
Which I don't even remember what that is. And so that's why I thought if we upgrade mailman in place from mailman to on the host to mailman 3 and docker we could use the existing MTAs or whatever all that stuff is all like the existing, you know, surrounding environment.
Might be handy and but then again maybe somebody else knows more about this MTA stuff that I do because I know nothing so
Well, I am MTA is just, yeah, we, we use post fix most of the time.
Hey, mail transfer application or mail transfer agent that is responsible for sending an incoming male to its destination.
As opposed to an MU, a mail user agent. Which is most people use a mail client.
On whatever computer they have. Whether it's, you know, Thunderbirds, real popular, if you're in a corporate world or not the outlook.
You know, those are the 2 biggies. You know, post fix is the most. Is the MTA that I like because it's easiest to configure but A lot of pre built systems use Ex.
Okay. And my only problem with action is I've never taken the time to learn how to configure.
And every time I try to change the configuration, I break it.
Does that help, Sean?
Yeah, yeah, it's bring a maximum. I did fiddle with post fix.
I think I did successfully get it running one time, but, I wouldn't call it a fun experience.
But yeah.
Well, it's actually not that hard if you start with a working config.
And. Course that's another thing we need to check. Post.
I wonder if that is.
We actually use a GUI to admin, the email system.
Okay. So, that's what we do.
Yes, call post fix admin.
Oh, okay. That's what all those funny pictures are. Okay.
Yeah.
It looks, it looks like it's going to be around. I see you know you're on Debian 12 post post-examine.
Yeah, well, I tell you what since nobody knows anything about it
Maybe ought to take a minute and show it and show what it looks like.
No, Lee, we can't do that. These people haven't paid the ticket to see that.
Okay, Lee, if you're gonna force it to. I guess we'll give them a free D here.
How did, you know, my question still is how did B end up on Debian if you're such a a lizard over there Lee
It's, okay, where is my window? I didn't build it.
Okay.
And to some arguments. Debian is. A little more stable. As a server.
Because it doesn't track. Leading edge. You know, all, all of the Debian releases are pretty much stable.
And besides, Debian. Was built long before. Hi, I even started teaching in my Sui classes.
Mac in the network is. Okay.
And the other reason being some of our talent. Is not. Grown or leaning towards switching distros.
So I'm not going to complain because you know, some, some of those, some of those folks been around longer than I have and They've done a lot for the organization and I would not want to.
Problems. Anyway, what you see on what you see on the screen here is post 6 admin. Is it PHP GUI too?
A post fix email server.
You log in and you have a login screen. You can create admin users. Here's all the domains you have configured.
We only actually have one.org, everybody else forwards to it.
And virtual list is where you do most of your work or at least I do. We've only got one domain.
So you search for mailbox, LVL.
You scroll down. And here it is.
So that mailbox is. This is the configure. Is how you change your password.
Name quota 0 for unlimited
Other email. Which is where it would send a message if you say forgot password but we don't use that.
What else? Aliases. We've got, we've got a lot of aliases.
Easy alias is here.
It works pretty good. I actually use it also on my For Omni Tech. Some of the stuff I've never even looked at, send mail or send.
Or send an email just per test. Change your password. View mail logs.
Or view the admin operations.
Let's see. Yeah, I've been using it for 4 or 5 years now. It works.
And it's a lot easier than mucking around with. Text files like access access and stuff like that.
This is Stan, I hate to ask, but when do we want to stop the recording?
I'd say keep going.
I think you're right.
Yeah.
I have a question about recording.
Okay.
What?
Stay in. You think that this presentation will be up online.
About 20 min.
20 min from now, did you say that?
That's what I said, but I lie a lot, you know that?
Yeah.
Bye, tomorrow anyway, right?
Okay.
It'll be up by the mall, yeah. Well, that depends when. When Zoom processes it.
Gets it processed. Sometimes they process it within 20 min. Sometimes it's not till the following day.
You know, it just depends.
Well, now, realize, Dan. They usually process it in 10 or 15 min. The question is, when I forward email to you?
That's true. I, you mean you manually forward that to me? Wow.
Yeah.
So, so, you know, sometimes I'm still here to forward it tonight, other times I do it in the morning.
Okay, alright.
Okay.
But in in in 15 min you can go out there in the in the recording section and find it. I mean, you don't have to wait for the email to get there.
I thought you had automated that that forwarded things to me, you know, I mean rather than manually doing it.
No.
Okay, well, learn something new every day. I'll look for it and if I see it before midnight I'll
I'll probably get it out there. Do you want me to send you a note when it's out there, Ed?
So. You can or? Is it a link gonna be on the web page?
It'll be on that presentation archive page.
Presentation archive but page. Okay, great. I was gonna, I was gonna post it on.
That's okay with you guys.
It'd be great.
And you know, you might not know this, but to. A number. Well, not a big number.
But there are hosts. On the, the Twit Network, this Week in Tech Network with Leo Report at all.
Yeah.
Who follow me on messed on and also other of our people like Scott Grannemann and stuff.
So if I post it and maybe Scott reposted or something like that. I thought maybe it'd be kind of an interesting.
Topic because they're always talking about Windows subsystem for Linux and the subsystem for Android.
And, you know, they, no, so far, I don't think they've ever met a Microsoft guy talk about it.
Yeah.
So, you know, kind of an interesting, taken. Thanks.
. IN. That
Say again, John.
I said, please share a link for that site in the chat.
And I share a link to what oh, Oh, you want the stand?
I can, what do you mean?
Hello. He was talking about a site.
What? To wait. Which site?
Okay.
Oh, I, oh, I think. Oh, you might have. Yeah, I, I was gonna post it on master, which is a social network inside like
Okay.
But, I mean, if you want to follow me, I' it on it. Ed, howland at foster.
Dot. I could put that in the chat.
But you have to sign up from Yeah.
I looked at Mastodon as yet another rabbit hole. I don't want to go down because I'd be knee deep in that.
Hi, I'd spend half a day on Wikipedia another half a day on YouTube and the other half a day on Macedon.
I think I got a problem there.
Yeah.
This is what we get sent for, the faster I go, the behind her I get.
Yeah.
I could do a presentation on that sometime, the faster I go, the behinder I get.
Yeah.
I'm good.
I'll Steve, I'll put that on the planning schedule. Would you wanna do it on a Thursday or Wednesday?
Preference.
Why don't I aim for Wednesday and now hit Thursday maybe.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay. And.
So it usually goes around here. Hello.
Ed Holland.
Yeah, it is still here.
Oh, the posting you put out there. Was your name at Boostodon.
Dot org. You really want boost it on or did something get fat figured?
Did I probably, I think you did it. Yeah, it's FOST odon.org.
What did I type? Or Apple with.
Yeah, you got F 00 STOD on.org.
Yeah, there's the missing S in there. Sorry.
Of a missing F.
But post it again, post it again. Post it again.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, S is in Sierra. Yeah. Alright, I just close the chat and I'll just give me a second.
You know, I'm sorry guys, I'm blind. I don't
I just never heard. I just never heard Mastodon referred to as Hosted on before.
Well, it's just another server. Oh, okay.
Yeah, it's just the server. It's like a mail server. Right.
Hmm.
Okay All right, here we go. I'll try it again.
So, Ed, you're still on new show, are they paying you over there yet?
Okay, does that one look better?
F.
Yeah.
Yes, that's stands for the free and open source. Version of mastodon.
Oh, okay.
Is mastodon not open source?
Of course it is, but at the, there's different, interest groups you know you might be into knitting or something right or he might be in the i don't know.
A role playing games, right? So there's, there's, you know, different servers for different things.
Different strokes for different folks.
5 ousted on, okay.
Pasta Don is one of the bigger ones. It's a. A lot of developers are not there.
I didn't know that.
I didn't either.
I got it.
Didn't we have a, Macedon presentation?
I think, we, did. We did. We had a mess done with, Scott Grenum and gave a, on presentation that, I think it was the main, I think there's a say, Linux meeting or the main meeting.
Several months back.
And you mentioned. A bunch of different servers and posted on was one of them.
Looks like it's invite only nowadays.
Yeah.
Plus it down? Oh really? That's interesting.
They've been dealing with the Ddos attacks and spam
But then I guess the bigger you are, the bigger the target you are.
Yeah.
I guess I got in under the wire. It's like, wouldn't have invited me. I'm telling you that right now.
Yeah.
And, you had mentioned earlier the new Shell talk on November, 20 first.
Yes, sir.
If you, can. Throw in the chat what a URL to look at to find that.
I'll put it on to the sloop.
Do, do you want the, I don't have the URL.
We've already got it there, Gary.
We do.
Yeah.
Oh, you mean on the calendar?
Yeah. I'm looking at the calendar now, Stan and I don't see it.
I thought I put it up there, but then I'm not sure what I had for breakfast.
Okay.
Sorry.
Oh, my head.
Yeah, I don't have a I don't have a URL for I don't have a I don't have a URL for I always rely on Jonathan for I always rely on Jonathan for those sorts of things.
Okay.
I always rely on Jonathan for those sorts of things. I mean, to this day, I don't even know if they have a URL for it I always rely on Jonathan for those sorts of things.
I mean to this day I don't even know if they have a website.
Yeah, they got a website, but he He, winds up doing different, names for the meetings.
All over the bed.
Right. Yeah, he does that because the, you know, you get bad actors in their.
So, yeah, I won't have the meeting fruit. I won't have the link.
And tell a couple of, you know, maybe a day or 2 before the actual meeting. And I can send that guys, send that over to you, but Jonathan usually sends it to.
Just, you know, just throw up on post, post it up on, discuss and if we see it, we, Gary or I will put it up in the calendar.
Right, right. Well, I keep telling him to send it to, editor at slug.
Dot org, as an email as well. So.
I keep telling, I, I keep telling you, to discuss. So everybody sees it. That way, that way, if I'm asleep in the switch.
Okay. Okay, that'll work too. No, I would just say, send it to jointly to editor in order to get it on the calendar.
That's the reason I said.
Well, if I'm asleep at the switch, I, you know, everybody will see it.
Okay, that's good point. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, so I don't have any URLs or anything.
Well, I mean.
I can give you, I can give you a URL to the new shell site.
Yeah.
I believe it's semi-dash bug.org.
Is it? Hmm. Okay.
I think it is. The website.
Sorry, Gary, what did you say?
Oh, I just trying to say that the, it's 2 different issues, whether or not to have the the URL for the zoom or the did see right now I'm just looking to put an abstract out there so people go oh I want to go to that meeting reserve.
Reserve that night.
Okay. That's a really good idea. I'll get the abstract together and, run it by Jonathan tomorrow.
Okay. Excellent.
And, and so I'll email up to you guys, tomorrow. Okay. I got all day tomorrow to work on it until I meet with Stan in the evening.
Okay. Yeah, I suggest you do that abstract as soon as possible and send it to him.
I will do so. I will do it in the morning.
Thank you.
And as soon as the sun comes up.
Well, I'm always up well after the time change. I don't know way back. I can't figure out what time I'm actually up.
Yeah.
That was a joke, Ed, that was a joke.
I get up at the same time. No, I do, but I get up at like 6 am or sometimes earlier and but I don't know what time that is anymore.
I got I got kind of confused.
Yeah. Yeah.
I guess that means that I'm getting up at 5? Is that right?
I don't know. I haven't figured it out this last couple of
Or am I getting up at 7 or something? I can't remember now.
You know, it's been 3 days now. I haven't figured out what the health going on.
All I know is it gets darker. Before my stomach tells me it's time to go to bed.
Yeah. Yeah.
No, no, I'll do it, tomorrow. Totally, my mind to do an abstract on it.
I've got the, you know, there was a bit of it in the slides that I sent you, right?
Just the very, the first slide there. Basically, I'm gonna abstract that. You know that first slide into an abstract.
Yeah. Oh, you don't want me to create an abstract. Do you? I get real creative when I do an abstract for somebody that doesn't cooperate with us.
Would you ever do that?
Hey, remember that slide that said arbitrary and cranky?
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
You could have just said old, would have taken care of it.
I, it's always on that slide too.
I know.
You know, I was born arbitrary cranky and I've been getting mel over as I aged.
That's what you think.
It's a matter of perspective, Gary.
Okay. Yeah.
And what angles are coming from.
Yeah.
And who's observing you?
Yeah.
Is it the, is it?
And just because you're paranoid doesn't mean I'm not out to get you.
Yeah.
So when you said observing him, does that mean that he's a Schrodinger's Gary?
Is that what we're saying about him?
Here we go.
I'm sorry, I wasn't paying it. I wasn't paying attention.
Live, 1 min. As Brodinger's cat, you know, sort of your scary.
Yeah.
Derry, Physics Joe.
Yeah.
You, have you guys heard the physics joke with the Heisenberg.
I might have, but I'm uncertain.
Oh!
Oh! Right.
That's bad.
Okay. Is that yeah, that's a good one. That's yeah good Hey, yeah, so anyway, so yeah, Heisenberg got this like fast car he's going down the road, you know.
And, son, he looks at his rear mirror and the blue lights are flashing. Tap, over and.
Hey, it up to the window and he says, When it rows a window down I says, Dr.
Heisenberg, I see, you know how fast you were going? And Heisenberg goes, no, but I know where I'm at.
Yeah.
Again, you gotta really know the quantum physics.
I don't.
Well, I was I was shocked. I was actually in a courtroom one time. Where the person who had gotten a speeding speed ticket?
No. You've gotten a traffic light ticket. And so he explained to the judge. That there was a relativistic effect and so the light may have been red.
But it didn't look like it to him because he was moving and the judge very quickly got for a second said okay.
So we'll just change the charge to speeding and the necessary speed to do that frequency of light shift.
You owe a few $1,000 in fines.
Whoa!
Yup.
Yeah, that really happened. Yeah, oh my goodness. Yeah, but you'd have to be going about the speed of light to, you know, to, you know, miss that red pull down hitting you.
Okay.
Somebody really say that, Gary, I mean, really?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Good.
I figured he wasn't being real nasty about it. And the judge took it well, so.
Maybe, maybe there was a little insider chuckle there, I don't know.
Hmm.
Maybe that was his twelfth time before that judge.
Yeah.
Yeah. And they were trying trying to one up each other. Yeah.
Yeah.
Repeat. Repeated better.
I got another one for you too. This is the one about the the farmer right and He's a dairy phone.
You know, he's having problems with his cows and they're just not producing. You know, they're just, they're just, they're just not giving the right kind of output.
So, so he decides that he's gonna hire, hire some consultants to come in and.
And sort of help out with this, whatever, right? So first person he hires is a is an engineer engineer comes in.
SET person hires is interior designer. And the third person he hires is that a physicist.
Probably see where we're going. So first thing the engineer says, you know what your problem is.
The milk flow, the flow and the pipes, the pipes are too narrow.
And so the flow is just not. You know, you don't have the right flow, right?
You got it. You have to have better pipes. Right. So.
And the interior designer comes along says. No, no, no, that's not the issue.
The issue is The cows really need a like say a warm comfortable place where they can feel safe and secure and and we have to have like passed out colors on the wall and and and and classical music playing and you know we it's it's it's a thing about you know both line psychology right Get it, make them feel good.
And so then the physicist comes over and he brings up a blackboard and he says, draws a big circle in the blackboard, he says.
Let's consider the cow.
That's the end of the joke.
Hmm.
Yeah, the basic point is that physicists always try to produce everything to its. Very based component parts.
Okay, okay.
Okay, if you say so.
Now don't, don't blame me on that. That was a, Lawrence Krauss joke.
Yeah.
Okay.
Hmm.
I guess it didn't really, win the crowd there.
Yeah.
You guys, you gotta see it. You gotta be there.
You got, you had to be there, yeah. Okay.
Wow.
I'm moving, during the meeting.
I think that probably is apropos unless anyone has any. Anything else to bring up? Discuss?
Change the topic. Hearing none, I'll take that as a motion to adjourn.
Is there a second? So move. All of every 65 by the repone, all if they were 65, you can sign up on the snow.
The eyes have got it. We are adjourned for the sake of the recording this was the general meeting of the St.
Louis Linux Unix users group. It is Wednesday. The eighth of November. 2023.
Thank you all for coming. Oh, tonight's speaker. Was John Newbold from Microsoft. He spoke on the topic of Windows subsystem for Android.
And our tutorialists tonight. Was Stan Reichardt who told us all about, Oh, I'm off script.
No, there was a script that would make a nice perfect copy of everything that you did. And everything put on your keyboard in a terminal session.
And you could either play it back with its, the results that came in. Or you could run it live and rerun the commands over and over again.
That was