Do the bookend, and then you can have the floor.
Alright!
All right. This is Wednesday, uh.
Uh July, the.
Tim.
Yeah. July the 10, th Wednesday, July the 10, th 2024. This is the monthly meeting of the St. Louis Linux. Unix users group uh, and it's all almost always on the second Wednesday of the month where we are today.
Uh! It's a meeting that's divided like an orio cookie. We've got the announcements in the middle.
Uh. But the 1st part of our meeting tonight is a basic tutorial.
Uh, which is uh organized by Grant. And uh, he's going to talk to us.
Kind of this is the 3rd of the series we've had on.
Um.
Use of remote tools. So he's gonna.
Tell us what goodies we might be using here later tonight. So with that, I'm gonna turn it over to Grant.
Alright! Suppose I should share my screen.
There is, uh something resembling a slide deck.
Um.
Okay.
Come on!
Oh, boy!
Can you see my screen.
Couple more, but.
Yes.
Bumps should be good.
Okay.
And.
All I see is black.
Do I need to stop.
Ah! Here comes something.
Okay, should be.
Multi-tone, gray background.
Um 7 tabs.
That's what I have.
Yeah, looks like it.
Okay.
Alright!
Um. So the previous 2 months we've done some information on how to.
Do network sniffing, and how to do it remotely.
And last month I we said, we're gonna do something that is against security best practices. And uh, just simpler to get started.
Here is what I hope is a quick.
Um.
Interlude on how to do things.
With better security and a more convenient way of doing it.
So.
Obligatory intro, slide.
We go to Ssh, are you seeing the black bar right below the top, or is that just my display.
I think that's just your display.
Um. So reminder on how to create Ssh keys and install them and use them. I'm going to assume.
That. Uh! Most people know how to do that, or, if not, here is.
Enough stub on how to do it and feel free to reach out to me.
Uh, or just about anybody else that has done it.
But I did split this out into variables to make things a little simpler.
Um.
You run? Ssh, keygen.
You tell what the number of.
I like to add comments that helps when you're on servers, and you have a whole bunch of different keys for do various different things.
You can store keys and separate files to make it simpler, and the type.
So those are set up above.
Here is a generation I did specifically for this.
And yes, I know I'm going fast, because this is not the crux of this presentation.
Then, similarly, you can use Ssh. Copy Id to conveniently.
Push the key.
To the target system as the target user. Again, with the.
Reusing some variables and setting some new ones.
Then down at the bottom, depending, if you have it in your config or not.
You? Ssh, with key.
As the user. You want to to the target system.
And ideally, you're logged in and dropped at a prompt, with no interaction.
Presuming the key is available and or loaded in an agent.
Any questions.
Okay.
The.
Crux? Of what?
I want to present this evening.
Is, how.
To utilize Pam as in pluggable authentication, module.
To authenticate to Sudo and su.
Using the keys we just created and installed.
Um? As Lee asked.
Pam or pluggable authentication, module.
Is a framework that exists in just about every Linux. There's some stall works that don't have it. Um!
Um. Solaris does. I think multiple Bsds do, but probably not all of them.
The idea being it's a framework that programs use an outsource authentication, too.
The advantage being.
If you want to.
Add a new type of authentication. You know, Kerberos, if it was the nineties or.
Tonight. You want to add Ssh. Key authentication.
You put a module on the system and you tell programs to use it.
You don't have to have program source code. You don't have to recompile or relink.
It's you plug it into the framework.
Called Pam.
Tweak some configs, and you're using your new authentication.
So to do that.
Um install on Debian based systems.
Apt get or apt to pick your package manager, Pam Ssh, agent off.
That does the install. I already had it installed on my sample system.
It's pretty simple should be an all distros of any contemporary system.
Do take 3 min and skim the configuration section of the man. Page.
We're paying sshh off.
It's like 12 lines. It has a lot of good information. It's an easy read.
You probably would have read it in the time I'm talking about it.
Please do. It behooves you.
Misley.
Haley.
Okay. Um.
Pam Ssh. Agent auth.
Does depend on being able to communicate with an Ssh agent.
I accomplish that by forwarding my local agent when I log into trusted servers.
Security best practices. Don't forward your agent to untrusted servers.
But I trust.
So I forward my agent to Bach when I log into it, or likewise with my personal servers.
Any questions.
Yeah, what does that do forwarding your agent? Are you gonna get to that? Or.
Um. I was not planning on it, but sure um.
The agent runs in memory.
Wherever you have the agent running, and it loads your shades.
Into memory. And this is important, like, if you have a pass phrase protected key.
Rather than being prompted for the pass phrase. Every time you want to use it.
You're prompted one time when you load it into the agent.
And then Ssh, or anything else that utilizes the Ssh agent.
Can have access to that key.
In memory.
Um, and the way the agent works is.
A client asks the agent to sign something.
So the key is not.
Does not leave the agent. The agent does work on behalf of the person or the program.
Requesting the authentication.
Uh. So when you start an agent.
And if you just do uh Ssh agent.
On a system. You'll see some output, and it'll start an agent in the background.
And it.
Outputs some environment variables, usually.
Set through an Eval.
But just.
Take a look.
And you can export some variables.
And then anything that.
Wants to can look at that. It's a unix socket.
Can talk to it and ask the agent to list the public ids. It has keys for.
And it you can ask the agent. Please sign this blob with key identifier.
And it does so when you pass it back to whatever.
Remote. You're trying to authenticate, to.
Um so.
If.
Keeps the.
Privacy and secrecy of the key.
Within the agent.
And it streamlines things and makes it.
Simpler to use with enhanced security.
That help.
Yeah, I'm a little bit confused on why, you would.
Forward your agent cause like I understand, using an agent like on my local system cause. Then, if I'm like.
Um.
Like, I think with ah.
With some get commands and stuff like you have to type in all the time your password. So using the agent kind of stops you there.
Mm-hmm.
I don't really. I mean, I guess the same thing on a remote system is why you would do it.
Yes.
So what I do is I load my multiple keys into my agent on my local workstation.
My public servers.
Do not have my private key.
They only have the public key.
So when I log into my public server.
Um with agent forwarding. I can then ssh from server one.
2.
Server. 2.
Authenticating with the agent that is, on my local workstation.
And that's because when I forward.
The agent from my workstation to server one.
It creates a unix socket. It's forwarded back through Ssh like a remote port forward.
Back to the local agent. Socket.
So when I run Ssh. On server, one to go to server 2.
It has access to an agent. Socket.
That is.
Physically.
In the memory space on Server One. It's actually talking to the agent on my workstation.
Gotcha.
So private key is only.
On my local workstation.
Or as part of tonight's entertainment.
Is, I can ssh to server one with agent forwarding.
And then using what we'll get to, I can authenticate to Sudo.
Using that agent.
And keys loaded therein.
Or I can do similar with su.
So I have stronger authentication. It's uh, however, many bit uh 2048, I think, is what the sample key was.
Cryptographic, number.
Used.
To authenticate me.
Instead of my measly.
25. Character, password.
So I have stronger authentication.
I'm not.
Stopped and prompted for a password.
It is a transparent operation for me, and that is enabled, with the agent forwarding.
Make, sense.
Yeah, it's cool. I I when I used it locally, I thought it was weird, like, Oh, this is a socket like I have a socket going for this, but I guess that makes sense for this used case where you.
You know port, forward, or whatever to that socket through multiple machines that I guess that's why it's uh.
A socket cause I was thinking as the socket, really the best way for this on my local machine. But yeah, it makes sense when you.
Yeah, and the unix sockets are inherently more secure than network ports.
In the fact that they are.
Talk about forwarding and stuff. So that's cool.
By themselves, inherently local to the system.
The only way to get to them remotely is one.
Or via remote, is with something else.
Proxying that access.
Makes sense.
So you're saying that this is more secure than um.
Having a Ssh key pair on the server one when you're to get to server 2.
Correct because you have.
The private key used.
Is.
Located on.
Server, one.
I'm trust all the Admins are, gonna do the best they can to secure the system.
But unfortunately things happen. Um.
We won't go there.
So there's a possibility that private.
Key pair, half of the.
Key pair.
Can be compromised.
And copied.
With agent forwarding the private key is nowhere on.
Server, one.
And there's no way to extract the public key, or I'm sorry. The private key from the agent. You can only ask the agent.
To sign, something.
And if I'm disconnected.
That's not even accessible.
One server, one.
Anything else.
Okay, so.
Pam is an existing framework.
We're adding another piece to that framework.
Relatively simple.
Um.
Then.
Start with Sudo, and I hope you can see that title. I see Black Bar.
Um.
As I was showing Lee anytime. You're modifying system. Critical files make a backup.
Um, either in the existing directory with a different name. But be mindful that certain places.
Um like Etsy suitors, Dot D, and a few other locations.
Their file, name constraints.
As in certain file, names are automatically included.
Um, so my recommendation is usually backup the file into your home directory, or if you're working as root.
I like to copy the file with a date to Roots Home Directory.
Next pro tip is when you're modifying system, critical files, things like sudo.
Failed, secure.
So if you have a typo, or somehow mess up the logic.
It is going to lock you out. So you want to have another terminal.
Physical, terminal, or emulator, or whatever.
Open and elevated privileges, so you can back out your mistake.
Been there done that.
Um. But as long as you have that reserve terminal.
It is pretty safe to do whatever you want in.
A second terminal.
Um. I normally recommend in that.
Backup terminal. Um be in a program that will not time you out.
Either start a read. So it's waiting for you to provide data and hit, enter, or go into your favorite editor that some people can never figure out how to escape.
etc.
But just make sure that safety window.
Does not time you out and log you out.
I really like that idea. Nice.
Um. When I was at Ibm we had that save our bacon multiple times. We had a team of Junior Admins making.
Um Suders and or Pam changes, and invariably every change window. Somebody would oops something.
Be it an extra space, or they were new to the eye, and didn't tell us.
Mm-hmm.
Uh things happen. So it's like, Okay.
Go over to your other window, and are you comfortable, backing out like? Copy your backup file in place.
Or would you, like somebody else, sit down at the keyboard and.
Help you get out of the ditch.
And.
I would encourage depending what it was.
Um.
I often wanted people to fix things themselves as a learning opportunity, but part of the time I had to pull them out of the ditch.
And then let them try again.
So.
Similarly.
Use the Vi pseudo command.
If you prefer emacs, or Joe, or something else.
Set the editor environment variable. Vi. Pseudo respects.
And, despite its name, it will happily allow you to use emacs to edit the suitors file.
Um, and as I have here once you are done with your edit.
The I Sudo run sanity checks on the temporary file.
And lets, you know if there's a syntax problem to make it much harder for you to lock yourself out.
Whereas if you just use your preferred editor, those syntax checks don't run, and if you don't have that terminal.
You're gonna have to have somebody get on console.
And if it's a system that has some current Linux mentality.
There's no root password you're rebooting from live media, and that really sucks.
If it's a production database server in an unmanned data center.
So.
Yeah.
It's especially if it's in San Francisco.
Yes.
Sudo fails secure.
If you screw up it says Nope, something is wrong. I am not gonna honor any of the config file. I'm gonna sit here and pout.
So.
With those pro tips.
And heads ups out of the way.
What you need to do.
To.
Turn on the new module we installed on the previous tab.
Is you need to edit the Etsy Pam de.
Sudo file.
And uh.
Insert.
This line.
The 1st authentication line.
And I did this whole presentation with the intention of you would have these slides, and could reference or ask for clarifying details.
So I'm not walking through it. I believe Lee is going to do some of that in a bit.
Um! Once you have done that, and.
Pam is its own entire subsystem.
Kind of foreshadowing it. Something on Tab 6.
Once you have that in place.
You do need to add a line to sewers to keep.
The Ssh. Auth sock variable, and that points to the.
Aforementioned unix socket.
And what'll happen is.
Once sudo starts.
It keeps that variable, and the Pam module reads that variable to look and talk to the socket.
And test your authentic port, authenticate you.
Using.
The keys that are in the sock, um in the agent via that socket path.
So.
Edit the pseudo's file.
And append the.
This.
Line below the last.
Default in the keep line. If there's not one, you'll see some other defaults.
You can just append it below the last of the defaults.
Uh in your terminal emulator test. Make sure that you can still do.
Um, and then it didn't fail. Secure, due to a typo or whatever.
If it's not working and it has failed, secure.
Go back to your safety. Net terminal.
And undo the changes you made, and you might, if this is new to you.
You might wanna after you do the pam piece.
Test sudo.
It would prompt for a password. Still.
And then, after you do.
The defaults test who to again, and it should.
Um, barring the caching time out which you can clear.
I'd have to look at the option.
Or wait 5 min, or start another terminal.
You should be able to sudo.
And it would take you straight to the prompt.
Without prompting for a password, because it uses the new Pam module. You turned on.
To actually ask.
Your Ssh. Agent.
To sign, something.
Using your private key, and it can then cryptographically verify with the public key that is in your authorized key file.
Um if you're crossing users.
Um. You need to.
And the source users, public key to the target user's file.
Um for you logging into.
Your account and going to Sudo.
That's not.
Necessary. This comes more into play when you're trying to use su.
So.
Any questions before I go to su.
Hello! Anybody!
No questions.
Are you gonna take it? Are you gonna take it the last step and scramble your password after you got this working.
Cause.
Theoretically, you shouldn't need it anymore. Right?
No, I am a firm believer. You always need to know what your password is, because you have things like too many.
Mounts, or it's been too long since you've.
Mount a file system, it stops and wants to run a check, and you need a root password on boot.
You. Your account has a password.
I believe I prescribe to the belief system. You should know that password. If you want to change it.
And record the change password. That's fine.
But.
And there's also times you may be logging in.
From a trusted friend system that does not have your key.
And when you type sudo.
You would need your password.
So nice idea!
Not my cup of tea, sean.
Yeah, so this is so, really, we're not really limiting the surface area here for any type of.
Attacks or anything. This is just like a convenience thing. Then I have to type your.
Password when you're pseudoing.
It's convenience. It enables some automation.
And it makes things faster.
Yeah. So you unlock the agent on your machine, and then from there it can carry out tasks on your behalf. So you're thinking.
Yes.
So you just.
I think. Uh, I have a vague memory of seeing somewhere where they um.
And you're putting your shh password. And there's if if someone's running a trace or something.
Maybe a peach race or something. They could see the password.
Um. If somebody has root or root level authority on your box.
They can probably.
Well, I guess it doesn't matter. Yeah.
Right.
About the only thing that.
Stop some at that point, as if a file is encrypted.
Or an Ssh.
So so you're saying, Yeah, it takes level privileges to run a p trace or something.
I believe so. Yes.
Or access, other memory, etc.
Yes, there are some.
In extreme cases.
There are things to beat on, but there's always things in extreme cases to beat on.
Yeah, yeah, the I think the point. There, they're just making the point that it's you know, it's not like it's encrypted or anything. You put your password in pass phrase.
Well um.
When I created the key.
I entered a pass phrase, and that actually encrypts the key.
Private Key.
In the key file.
And that's why, when you load it into an agent or use it without an agent, you have to provide that pass phrase. It's actually decrypting it on the fly.
Um when you load it into an agent.
It is stored in the agents, memory unencrypted, so it can be used.
Okay.
Anything else.
Okay.
Su.
It is.
Almost identical to Sudo.
The only difference is you're adding the same line.
To the Su. File.
Same directions. Just a different file.
This is where you do need. So if I want to be able to su from my G. Taylor account, to root, oracle or.
Pick your flavor.
I would need to put my public key as the source user in the target users authorized key file.
So this same methodology can be used for su and sudo, and other things.
Any questions.
Alright!
Um.
So.
There are some books that I have read over the years that have.
Helped.
With this process significantly.
I 1st learned about Pam Ssh, agent off lot more other things.
In the 1st edition of Ssh. Mastery.
Second edition is out.
It's.
Uh, probably a 15 to $25.
Book.
Uh, there's physical book. There's electronic copies.
And when we get to Tab 7 I can make it a little bit cheaper.
Um pseudomasty. By the same author.
Um.
Demystified Pam.
And what some of the uh.
Off is sufficient. The format of these lines, the ordering.
Kind of helps, all of that make more sense. So if you're curious and want to understand and not just follow rote.
Highly recommend to um.
Actually pam mastering.
Pseudomassies, the same idea, but all about pseudorrhs file, and how to use sudo, and a bunch of other things.
Some and all of these books that I'm recommending.
Or from a name you might recognize from a talk. Not quite a year ago, Michael W. Lucas.
Um dns sec mastery. I practice what I preach.
My zones are dns signed.
Tls mastery, if you've ever uh.
Wanted to do some things with Tls.
But how do I do this? And invariably things say, use the open Ssl command.
Tls. Mastery.
Was an eye-opener for me.
I can now predict what I'm going to want to do, what commands I need to do and understand the commands.
That I see running to do various things, and.
After dealing with Tls for 2015 to 20 years.
Tls. Mastery was an eye opener, and I wish I had read it 10 years ago, but it didn't exist yet.
Uh networking for system administrators. If I ever am in an office and have a junior admin working around me saying, I want to learn about networking. I will buy them a copy of networking for system administrators and gift it to them.
It gives a lot of between 95 and 1 0 5 level introduction for things, and.
Briefly, explains.
How to do things. It is a wonderful book.
And then Michael's latest work, which I think is on Presale right now.
Run your own mail server.
Teach you how to do what it says on the cover.
Been a postmaster for 20 years. I don't see eye to eye with Michael.
But what he has put together in the book.
Is viable, and will.
Help you end up with a functional mailer.
Uh, and.
Yes, my name is in some of these books.
Aye.
Got to read some of them before they were finished, and point out his mistakes.
Some of which he replied, said, No, you're wrong. Say sorry.
Okay.
Nail. The marquis, not working dank.
So tilted. Windmill press is Michael's website. That is a clickable link. It will be available. Well, the slide is on uh slugs website.
And when I decided I was going to give this presentation, I emailed Michael and said, Hi.
Can I ask for a 1% discount.
He's like, why do you want it? And I said, I'm going to be given this presentation. You said, No, you can't have one. You have to have a 10% discount.
So.
For this slug meeting. There is good through the 16.th
A discount, and I need to verify it, and I'll share it with everybody.
But I believe it's DR.
SCRI, P.
Tt.
With the Dns capitalized. It's Doctor Script. It's a nickname I've had for years.
It is good for any regularly priced item on Michael's website.
So if you're interested in any of those books.
Go buy them within the next week, use the code and get 10% off.
You want to put that code in the chat, Brent.
Uh, I will get it and put it there. In a few minutes after I stop sharing.
So.
Yeah, that that way we can be sure and copied on accurately.
Yep.
Okay.
I know that was a lot thrown out fast, and it was with the intention of this being in front of people, and they could copy and paste and read and ask questions.
When they got there.
Are there any other questions?
I believe there are a couple in the chat.
Somebody. Please share them with me, because I can't see that right now.
Okay.
Uh most recent is from uh Nick, and he says.
Can you please share the difference between S. Trace and Ptrace?
Uh! If I knew I would.
Uh can anybody else.
Speak to that.
And was that T, as in Tom or D, as in David, trace.
Ashes in Sierra and P, as in papa.
Okay.
Um. I occasionally use S. Trace, as in Sierra.
Um.
Then.
I might have just remembered it wrong. That's me that I put the note.
The 1st time about.
Um.
Thought it was p trace, and I might have just remembered it wrong. I don't know. Is there an actual p trace? Maybe there's none.
I don't know. There are many different utilities. I know the big 2 that I'm aware of is D, as in.
David.
On Solaris and Bsd systems, and it is.
Very detailed.
Uh gets in and looks at things.
One manner and gets a lot of information.
Um s trace, as in Sierra.
Is, I 1st ran into it on Linux.
And it does similar, but it is a fundamentally different method. And I it was.
Created on Linux before.
D trace was an option. If Dtrace is an option on Linux.
It's.
Kind of use for the same thing, and it's.
I think the environment you're in, and when it.
Landed there.
Just a quick search on the web is, it's showing, is the actual system. Call.
But the current kernel uses and S traces a, you know, a utility so.
That makes sense and.
It's much lower level than I normally get. When I ask Tracy, it's like, Okay, why is this program dying and not doing anything? And hey, why is it trying to read a file that doesn't exist and then erroring out after that, what is that file? Maybe I should put it there.
Um, I am not a programmer. I'm not a web developer either. I can't even make my key work reliably.
Um. I think there was at least one other question.
See.
In the chat.
I think the other questions were variations of this piece. S. Trace thing.
And then uh before that. It was a question about which I think was in reference.
To the next cloud conversation that.
Trying to be.
Put together.
Gotcha.
So I appreciate, that's all, resolved.
Okay.
Well, if there are no other questions in the chat or on the call, I think I'm going to stop sharing and have some gui center.
You're welcome.
Alrighty. Okay, thank you very, very much. Grant. Well.
Really informative. So once again, this is Wednesday, the 10th of July 2024, is the monthly General Meeting of slew St. Louis. Linux. Unix users group.
It's a group that's uh uh organized for uh open software standards.
Uh, open source.
Um, and uh so.
Try and aid in that direction.
Ah!
The uh.
This group overall right now, is running 4 different meetings during the month uh that are.
Kind of for general users.
Uh. And as Grant said, this is our gui middle of the meeting, where we do uh announcements. And uh.
Ah!
Quick set of questions.
I'm I'm kind of jumping through this because I was looking at the people who are on with us right now. I really don't see anybody who's a newbie tonight. Uh don't mean to use that term disparagingly. We love people.
Uh, but uh! I think everybody here has been to our meetings before, and so kind of knows the lay of the land.
I am gonna kind of go over just a little bit.
Okay, somebody's picking this up on the archive recording.
Um you're uh.
Way to get into slugs. If you show up for 2 meetings in the course of a calendar year.
You're a voting member uh, so there's no dues.
And we're just happy to have people to get part of our discussions and.
Their questions or their answers may contribute. So please do join us.
Um.
As I said, it's.
Uh kind of open source or open standards, I guess I should say.
Um so.
A lot of it winds up concentrating on Linux.
On Tcp, IP, software.
Um. So of course, we occasionally branch off into things that are proprietary.
As they affect.
The open standards. World so.
Um.
See.
Can't remember a whole lot on the calendar uh Lee's kind of glancing at that. He may have a comment here in a second. The only thing I will mention is next week on Thursday.
Is one of our other meetings that we host every month. It's the St. Louis.
Same goes for Linux users. Group.
And next week the Speaker.
Is Craig Buchan, and hopefully you all recognize that name. Craig was a long time member of the group.
Even God of St. Louis, out to Silicon Valley.
And uh uh.
Oh, he hasn't spoken to us in over a year, I think.
But it's gonna.
Give a talk on Thursday, so you all might want to hear it.
Um.
Sounds like a good philosophical title. It's a.
Architecture, and uh.
Building, architecture and computer architecture.
And basically he's gonna look back from philosophical standpoint of.
How we develop software hardware architecture for computers kind of based.
On how buildings are put together.
So.
Sounds like kind of interesting, like, say, philosophical discussion. So.
Come next Thursday, and uh.
Join us for that.
Um. Does that lead you to see anything in the calendar.
Well, we've got the new Linux group here at on the 23.rd
And then on the 1st slack meeting, which are the other 2 groups that we.
Keep track, keep running.
Um.
Stands fond of saying the new new Linux group.
Whoever has the least experience gets to answer, it's gets to ask the 1st question.
I thought they had to answer the questions.
And then the slack club is typically more hardware oriented.
Although it just tends to.
End up being a great discussion nowadays, since we're not having any more physical meetings.
Although they have that new library branch open now in Limburg. I wonder if we could ever get a meeting room down there? Oh, yeah.
Did you skip the 18.th
Let's see the 18.th
Yeah, that's the that's the log.
That's Craig. Uh. We don't have his his topic here on the calendar.
Okay.
Uh, I let's see, it is out on Meetup already, and into my failure for not putting it onto the calendar yet.
Is that it's.
It's ah, how computer.
Architecture is similar to building architecture. I have actually.
The exact title is Architectures, big and small.
Hey, look at how software patterns came from patterns in building architectures and what we can learn.
And I will get that out onto the calendar tomorrow.
A lot of a lot of folks. He hasn't been around too much since he moved out West before the pandemic. I guess it's 5 or 6 years ago.
But he's always been heads down. Coder.
And he does a lot of used to do a lot of ruby stuff, ruby on rails.
And a lot of other stuff.
Or a lot of other technical sides. But he's always been a pretty philosophical.
Software, designer, slash, thinker.
It should be a good presentation.
What else do we have on here.
Relation Group.
Okay.
Well, barring anything interesting?
Um.
Usually we, we uh offer a.
A chance to do some.
Uh.
Q. And A. Just if you got a odd question not related to tonight's topic. So just going to bring up.
There'll also be time, probably after the main presentation.
But sometimes because people.
Figure. They can't stay very late, or they want to try the early crowd here.
Uh anybody have any general question they'd like to throw out to the group or.
Just to comment on, hey, I was working on this this week, and this worked.
Yeah, I have a question. So and I'm gonna share my screen. Um.
I have a question. So I've been working on this.
Website.
The new website for that, I hope, will be the new left website for Slug.
And there's a couple source code repositories.
Um! And I was wondering what.
License. I should put the source code repositories with.
Um.
And I'm not like a big expert on open source licenses or anything like that. I know, you know. Obviously, we want it to be open source.
But I don't know if there's a certain license I should pick for some of this stuff if we.
We have an idea on that.
But basically. This repository right here, this uh.
Slug, stlug.
That's for this web page. So it houses all of like the meeting data. And these images and.
All like the code that makes.
This website.
And so I don't know what licenses are usually.
Put under. Does anybody have an idea for that.
Uh, not sure, Sean. Anybody have any ideas.
Yeah, we were just mentioning Craig. Uh, I'm sure he would have an idea.
Lee would say frequently had his nose in this stuff.
Think it's.
Um so.
I would think Scott Granlan would be a good resource for.
Yeah, I'd ask on the Discuss Mailing List.
Uh wider audience than people here tonight, and I'm sure.
Scott would have.
Some input.
Yes, yes.
Alrighty!
I'll give that a shot.
But I think, as you can see, the website, I think it's come along pretty good. Um.
I have, like the I have this meeting.
Um.
Posted.
I even have like. So this uh banner here only shows up.
If the meeting is in the future, or.
The next day. So basically up until the meeting day, and the next day is when the spanner will show up and it links to.
Uh the connection information.
On, slew right now.
And I think it's come along pretty good. I have all of the 2021.
Data loaded in here.
And so if you click on.
Any of these meetings. It takes you to.
The page where it has the Youtube.
Uh video, the title, the abstract, the presenter.
And then, you know, some other AI generated content like these.
Tweets. It also links to the meetup page.
And like some people like Uh, I don't know Lee.
I mean, if you go to his presenter page.
You'll see, and this is just in 2021. Look at all these.
I feel like this is like half the meetings in 2021. Lee was uh given talks at so.
I think. Uh, by the time I get 2022 and 3 and 4 in here, Lee is gonna have this thing scrolling for a mile.
Uh, with all the different presentations he's been a part of. So.
Um.
Where are you putting the data where you're storing it? How's it.
I'll be.
Yeah, so the data is actually Json file. So if we go in here to.
Uh, let's look at the one for tonight. That might be the most interesting. So Oops, sorry.
You're you're getting this from from Stan.
Again, the data from Stan or.
Yeah, they posted this stuff on.
The Steercom mailing list for me.
And so I was able to get the title.
The abstract.
And the presenter names from.
And then I came up with these references. So if they're, you know not right, that's on me, whatever.
Um, and then the AI comes up with the tags. Sometimes I tweak them. The AI comes up with the tweets.
The AI comes up with the Youtube title.
And the image.
And the all description.
For the image, and I realize this is too small to read. But it's not really.
You know, the details aren't super important here, but um.
I can look up.
But yeah, so the so every meeting is just the Json file.
Ah!
Like this.
And so, you know, I I was able to do one I like. I loaded one meeting um during grants presentation.
Uh. So I was a little bit distracted. But yeah, probably took me like 20 min to do one meeting kind of thing.
So it's gonna take a while to go through all 2022 and all 2023 and all 2024. But.
I'll get it done eventually and get them all loaded. Of course, if anybody wants to help.
Uh load these meetings or convert the data over. That'd be super helpful.
Or we could use a lot of other help and other ways too. So if anybody wants to lend a hand.
We're getting pretty close now to the point where we're gonna need some like system administration stuff like, how do we deploy this thing.
Where do we put it on? Bach.
How do we put it alongside some pieces of the current site, right? Because.
If you think about it.
This right here, this links to slug or well.
That one. I clicked on links to Stlenix Org right.
But if we go back to.
Um the one for tonight.
When I click on this link. It's gonna link to, you know, slug right.
But if we're saying we're gonna replace slug with this new site.
Well, how's that? W, how's that gonna work? You know what I mean, how we're gonna have this.
Um like these links still exist and coincide alongside of.
The new site. You know what I mean, and it's not an impossible problem by any stretch of the imagination, but it is. Gonna take some like Sys Admin type skills and stuff like that. Apache configs and whatnot to um.
To kind of get all that stuff hammered out, and so, if anybody would like to help volunteer.
Glad to have it.
Or if anybody's interested in getting involved with web devs, like, I just found out that clicking these links down here doesn't work. So I need to fix these.
Pagination links down here.
Um.
Anyway.
It does look pretty decent in the mobile view as well.
Um. Not too bad.
So.
Yeah, that's it. I guess I'll stop there. I guess I'll.
I'll try asking again next week for the license thing I might just do mit, just because that seems like the most easiest.
Like, you know.
Slap him, I see on it. Call it a day, but.
Uh.
Is it cleared? Everyone.
What the.
Working.
Um.
The working example website, is there somebody, if they want to go out and take a look.
I mean sloop Org goes to the.
Old website.
Um. I think it's right now. It's on something Shawn has that is not.
And really, any way.
Associated with slug.
Um one of the things that he and I have been discussing via email.
Is standing up, I think, I mockingly said, like St.
Uh 2024.
Slug, beta.
Dot sloop, org. Just stand up another site.
Virtual host on Apache.
Um, and put some things on Bach.
And actually start.
Testing some things.
There!
We're getting to the point we're running into some uh.
Cross origin, and uh.
The likes security policies with some of the testing he's doing, hosting.
Where he's at.
So we're kind of pushing the bounds and need to.
Grow, to putting something on.
A slug site.
And even if that means create a new virtual host.
Go ahead!
I am happy to help do that. I've been doing it on Apache for.
Decades.
Um, but.
Certainly want to discuss with.
Sys. Admins.
Uh? What.
Is desired, and consensus, and move forward.
Alright!
Um.
If the comment.
Ah was the.
Heading at the top of the page.
I believe the way it read.
Was St. Louis.
Linux.
Units.
St. Louis.
Linux Unix user group. Is that what it sounds like.
Yeah.
Switching the other.
Uh.
Yeah, so what I uh. So what I've been doing. And I think I did this on the Youtube channel as well.
Is St. Louis, Unix, slash Linux, user groups.
And um. You know. The reason why I like this is because I think it's important for us to maintain the Slu.
Ug cause. That's kind of what we call ourselves a slug, you know. I hear our members saying that a lot.
Mhm.
And so I wanted to kind of maintain that, if possible. And you know, sometimes people ignore these kind of slash.
Things like this when they're doing an acronym. And so I realize it's kind of a hack. But I really feel like we need Linux in there for like SEO for search engine optimization, so people can find us.
I I guess I was.
Uh.
Using it. In reverse of that I've been saying. St. Louis Linux unix users group.
Uh, figuring.
Conceptually. We could just drop the L for the Lewis in the city name.
And.
That would put the uu together and make the so ug acronym.
But.
Maybe I'm viewing that wrong. Then. Okay.
SL 2 UG.
SL. 2.
Um.
Squared.
One of the things I had.
Suggested to Shawn.
Was some of the graphic editing, Um.
Sl.
And then the UNL.
Mhm.
How they're kind of opsides of the slash.
Kind of superimpose them.
Like a upper left, and the L lower right with the slash in between.
Mhm.
But some of the things we were talking about with the graphics, so a common graphic could apply.
To both groups.
Uh-huh.
And that's just we're kind of spitballing back and forth. And what do we think? Oh, that stinks, hey? What about this? I like it a whole lot better than the thing that stinks type thing.
Yup!
So.
Very.
Way you've got it up there now is kind of the way I've been conceptualizing it just.
Uh neglect to capitalize the L. And Lewis.
And that way.
It just.
I mean you could leave it there like that like you have it right now. S.
Small team, small.
And uh.
So that gives us the slu UG acronym.
Yeah. And as Sgl is a common is a standard deviation stiff.
Should sean 1 1 thing that is struck me when when you showed the mobile view.
Ah!
I don't know if there's a way to shrink to pictures when you go mobile, because they take up like.
Half the page.
Her.
You know it. It seems like the art.
And they're obviously AI generated. It seems like we're placing too much importance on the pictures in the mobile view.
Is there any way to shrink them.
You know, for the mobile view, or would you have to do them on both.
No, they're completely separate, so I can change the mobile view. However, we want, and that won't affect the desktop view at all.
Okay.
Um.
So what would you just want like blank padding around the image, then, or cause.
Um.
Because basically on my phone, this takes up the like, it takes up the full width.
Right.
And so if I shrink the picture, what would we like? Let's say I make the picture half size and center it.
Um! That's.
I mean, I guess it would save a little bit of vertical space, but not a ton.
And then it would just have what like.
Yeah.
Uh, that's the other thing, too. I really don't like these colors, but I haven't got around to changing them yet. But do you just rather see like that blankish blue spit.
Color. Instead of the pictures.
Ah!
i i i don't know. I mean it just seemed like.
Yeah, a. The pictures are obviously AI generated. If.
Anybody knows what AI is.
And it. It just seems that we're putting.
Taking up too much screen real estate for what? Basically.
Yeah.
Maybe, like thumbnails in front of the title, or something.
That's kind of what I was thinking, but that might make them so small that.
You can't tell what they are.
Yeah.
Weird. I guess. Sean.
Um.
And you may hate me for asking this. But have you ever been on a website.
Where, as you scroll kind of like in between things, you can see the background picture.
Um.
I'm wondering if, like.
The text.
Could hover over it.
The picture select as you're scrolling. You can see the picture in between.
And then, as you scroll up.
You.
Go to the next card, or whatever it's actually the next cards picture that's in the background. So it's available if you want to see it, but it doesn't monopolize the screen.
So that makes sense.
Yeah, I don't know who you think I am, but I.
That's the professional, aren't you?
Oh, man. Yeah.
Well, and in in my suggestion there Sean would be. Is.
You've got so many platforms out there, and so many different browsers even on Mobile.
You know not. Everybody uses chrome.
Here you got safari and.
I think it'd be a major pain in the Wazoo to try to come up with something that look right on all the platforms.
Now this should I feel like this should work on everything I've tested on Firefox and edge.
It doesn't look great on my tablet right now, but that's I mean I could easily fix that. It's not that big a deal.
But no, I think it should work great on every browser. So if you find a browser that it doesn't.
That it just looks broken or janky on. Please let me know, and I'll fix it, cause I I think it should look good.
Or at least decent on every browser, every screen, size.
Ah, that there's another question for Scott. I remember 5 years ago he had a website that would test a site in every possible browser.
And show it to you.
Yeah.
Yeah. And I think, and you know, Grant brought up doing some like an email he brought up, do like doing some animations and things like that. And I definitely think.
Stuff like that is a good idea. But you know, also, you know, I think there's a lot of more important things that we need to do like um.
Get this to be the main site. So like.
There's still some features missing, and stuff like that, like the calendar, like the calendar, is nowhere on the new site yet, and like.
The donation page is nowhere on the new site yet, and.
The wiki isn't linked anywhere, you know, so there's like a ton of things that need.
Happen to this site that I feel are more important than like the style things, and especially like animations and hovering stuff. And so I'm also trying to prioritize a little bit. But as far as your comment about these pictures being too big.
Um. I guess if you if you can come up with like an example like um, I I guess that would help me right like, if you can find like.
An example, like some other website that you think does this kind of thing better? Um, then that would help me have something to kind of take as a reference, but as far as just like shrinking the pictures and just having like Gray around them instead. I don't really.
Love, that idea.
Yeah.
Um. But I'm not close to any idea. I'm open for ideas. Just uh. I think visual examples would be great.
Yeah, uh.
Yeah. Now, now that you're now you talk about it, I was thinking a thumbnail next to the title, but.
You know, then the title may or may not fit, depending on the big images in the in the mobile view, so.
Yeah.
The field.
Um. I don't know if some something to keep in mind as you work through it.
Currently the sub.
Yeah, mobile users are used to scrolling a lot right? I mean, that's when you're when you're.
When you're in, when your screen is only like 3 inches wide, you're used to scrolling vertically a lot, so I don't think the scrolling a lot is really uh.
Negative when it comes to the mobile.
Okay.
But yeah, thanks for the comments and things. But yeah, I really wanna focus on.
Like, wh, what are the big things that we need to get done in order to make this like the the main site? Because.
You know, if you look at our, you know, and I'm not trying to throw shade or anything but like it doesn't even have the like.
Hmm, it kind of.
I don't know. I just think this one's better, even in his current form.
With the bugs and the issues that we've pointed out. I think I just think it's better.
With like, how it links to the presenters with the.
Presentations and all that. I just think it's.
And so I just want this to become.
Like our main site. And then, once that happens, then I feel like we can spend time on like.
You know, the more kind of.
Uh.
Personal taste, personal choice. Kind of.
Design niceties, I'd say.
Yeah, yeah.
That's great!
Thank you.
And this one also does just one more thing. I want to show off.
This has an Rss. Feed as well.
Uh. So if you're someone like me who doesn't wanna subscribe to email mailing list, you could subscribe.
To this Rss. Feed, I mean, don't do it because it's on a placeholder domain.
But you could subscribe. If you have, like an Rss. For you, you could subscribe to this, and every time we post a new.
Meeting, you would get that in your Rss. Feed, which I think is kind of cool.
Yeah.
Um.
We should be able to put.
Much of the blurb you have.
Per meeting.
In each card.
For Rss.
Yeah.
Yeah. And I, yeah, and I just did that very quickly, following a tutorial. But yeah, I'm sure we could put more details on what I have in there.
Yeah, this is, uh.
You've got a lot of great things and a lot of.
Great ideas. I think we're just very early, and there's some very early representations of some things. There's some things you've obviously put a lot of effort in and look very nice, but like the Rss. Is very new.
Mhm, yeah, yeah, totally. Agree.
The other thing is, too, I'd like to have us so.
The feedback during Steercom the other night was that nobody likes this.
Uh logo for slug which I get. I'm I'm.
Is. You know, I did all these with an AI. I'm not good at this stuff like this graphic design stuff like no, I've never done this before in my life, so I of course I'm not going to be good at it. When I tried to get the AI. To generate here was like the St. Louis skyline with the arch, but instead of buildings and servers but nobody, I don't think that's coming across. How I thought it was.
And so, you know, that's another thing, too. If nobody likes this logo, we shouldn't use it. I don't want to use it if nobody likes it obviously, but by the same token.
I don't have anything else so.
Hey, Sean, Sean, flip back to that logo.
Yeah.
Sorry. Where'd I go with it right here.
Uh, I just realized what.
Is so what I didn't like about it.
The fact that the buildings are obviously duplicated on both sides.
Which is not reality.
It, it, the the the.
The 2 things that strike me as incongruous.
Is the stack of widgets there that aren't servers, or look like floppy drives, or Mac Minis.
But the fact that you've got the same set of buildings mirrored on both sides.
Like these 2 in the middle here.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
And then the 2 on the outside, and the and the ones in the middle.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that might be more than my uh, beyond my capabilities, too.
To change all that I like, I said, I'm not. This is the best I could come up, with. Which I agree is not very good. But yeah, I.
Oh, no, no! What what I'm saying is, if.
You know. Take your stands of it's your a your stanza that you generated with.
And just say, you know, make the skyline more realistic.
And drop the stack of machines in favor of something that looks like a real server.
Yeah.
Type of thing, and just to see if.
Or or send me the stands I've been playing around on.
Chat, gpt.
Realistic, asymmetrical skyline.
Um. One of the things I disliked was kind of the monochromatic, and one of the things we talked about.
Was adding a cardinal, and I've also considered.
Adding a beastie, or tux.
I don't know if there's I guess Bsd has the pufferfish. I don't know if there's a more traditional unix.
Logo.
Like, can we.
Pepper in some things on this, to make it more.
Unix, generic.
But not just.
Gray rectilinear things.
Yeah. So, Lee, if you're on, I I don't have the. I don't have the, you know, the prompt for this anymore. But if you're on Chat Gpt, which I'm not subscribed to anymore. So I don't think I can access this. I I mean, I could resubscribe, or whatever. But.
If you go on there. One of the custom.
Uh gpts is called logo designer. Something like that.
And it asks you for these things right? It asks you, what colors do you want? It asks you how complicated.
Do you want the logo to be? And then it asks for the prompt.
And so that's how I was able to get you know the Me. You know what I got here.
Um.
You know.
And this one people seem to generally like this one. So this is the one I've been putting uh everywhere. So I put this one on Meetup. I put this one on the Youtube channel.
Um! This is the one that I've been spreading for. Now.
Uh, but yeah, if we can come up with a better one, it's very easy to change, so I'm all for it.
Um.
Well, there's the other one is 2 l's, and one you, and this one has one ln, 2 years.
Yeah. So what I was going for originally was the log, and then the unix.
Mhm.
Cause. If you click on this one, it takes you to the unix meeting, and then if you take up click on this one, it takes you to the Linux meeting, and so I was kind of going for one for each meeting, like we we had before.
Um.
And that's the other thing, too. I'm wondering like right now we have these.
Slug and stl log kinda uh links here.
But i i i'm not. I'm just not sure if I see the value of separating them right? Cause I'm I'm getting used to seeing them.
Like on this homepage here. It's both. So this is like.
Uh-huh.
This is our Linux meeting. We have coming up next week. This is the meeting we're at now.
Mhm.
And it looks kind of, you know, having them all together to me.
Um.
This seems kind of more natural than.
Like like. I'm not sure why you would ever look. Oh, I only want to see the log meetings, or oh, I only want to see this Luke meetings.
Yeah.
Does anybody think they have a use case for that?
Well, not really. The the historic of it is uh slew. Name existed before.
Linux existed.
And you know we I.
I can graphically remember the 1st time one of our members said, Hey, there's this new thing called Linux. I want to do a talk on it so uh it was there prior to the name Linux being common, and then.
Logs. Linux user groups started popping up in different cities. So we called ours.
St. Louis log and uh, but we also.
Ran the St. Charles Lug.
And the old Monroe, Lincoln County, Lug.
And what was it? The.
Missouri, Open Source.
Most loggers. Yeah, most lug or molug. Oh, here you go. So you know there, there used to be multiple.
Logs.
And yeah, they basically all kind of.
Consolidate it, and just become.
For the St. Louis Lug.
I take that back. I shouldn't say that because there are still.
One or 2 logs over on the Illinois side of the river, which, uh.
We're we're never under our.
Uh Domain.
But uh.
They were cooperative groups, that we were always friendly with.
So I'm presuming I haven't noticed. If they're still operating. I haven't.
Pay a lot of attention recently. So yeah, it's just the history of.
Uh.
There. There used to be that distinction of having multiple.
Geographic areas.
Here in St. Louis that had lug groups.
Um on the flip side of that I.
Have noticed.
On too many occasions. In my opinion.
Traditional unix admins.
Kind of feeling.
Holier than now, and.
Wouldn't dain to use Linux if you held a gun to their head.
So there's.
Some animosity.
Mhm.
Um.
One of the guys I work with and interact with weekly.
Likes to refer to open source as shareware, and it's like I don't want any of that shareware shit on my server, and I think myself every time. Do you like ssh.
He said that yet.
I want to work well with him.
But there is that.
Animosity.
And I've run into that multiple times in the Aix.
Some in the slurs, some in HP, ux.
There's really not many others.
Active anymore that I'm aware of.
Yeah.
Um.
So, and I have not experienced that.
As part of this community.
But I've seen it elsewhere, and I thought maybe it was out of respect for some of that.
Yeah. The.
There. There was a little bit of of.
Yeah, Linux versus the other types of unix. But I think that maybe finally.
Going away.
Yeah, since most of the unix are dead.
Yeah.
I mean, and I'm sure some of the old Bsd.
Proponents would kill me for saying this. But let's be realistic. Bsd is still very alive, and it's 1 of the most used operating systems.
Only we call it Mac OS, and Ios I mean Apple.
Is, the.
Biggest.
Promoter of a Bsd system.
Um.
Yeah. But they, that's what they started with 30 years ago. I doubt very seriously that anything under the cover today.
Within the last 5 years they had.
X. Open.
Certification and legal right to call themselves unix with a capital U.
Really, yeah.
Yes.
Mother.
There have also been Linuxes that have been certified, and had the right to call themselves unix with a capital U.
I think they let that expire, but uh.
Uh due to day job. I know that Santa Cruz is still in operation, still selling licenses.
Really, I didn't realize that. Well.
Uh, they have actually come up with multiple new versions.
Um. They.
Wow! I hadn't heard that name, and I don't know how long.
Yeah. They merged.
Open server and unixware, and they call it.
So they merged open server 5 in. Unix, and they call it open server 6.
They came out, and I think this is.
Fucking, hilarious.
They came out with a Linux based version for a few years.
Um.
And they now have.
Open server, 10.
I think I saw in their website there. It's no longer the same company, but it's the name passed around in legal rights.
And the lawsuit, and.
Different.
Legal entities.
Yeah.
Still associated.
Like uh we've got.
Double digit.
I don't deal with them, but we've got double digit.
High, double digit, low, triple, digit.
Scope, servers.
On vmware at work.
Hey! Gabe.
Works. It would.
Oh, that's another name I had heard in a long time.
Keep up!
Um, okay, uh, we really extended our usual uh.
Of.
Q. And A. But I thought things were going so well there. I really hated to cut it off so.
Uh, for those of you who.
Who didn't think you were going to be part of that discussion tonight. I sorry if if you felt we were using your time. But uh.
My knowledge, are interesting discussion with both of them.
State, of.
The unix's plural.
Uh open source, and also.
Of our efforts.
To redevelop our website and.
So thank you very much for the efforts there. And again, anyone who would like to uh.
Uh help contribute a little bit uh. I'm sure it would be very, very much appreciated.
And by the same token, I apologize. It's it's largely my fault for not giving publicity out earlier about tonight's meeting. We we had, uh.
Ah, we've gotten things picked.
And uh.
But then, like I said I had uh.
So family wound up in the hospital.
And Stan was visiting his family out of town. So he's on an airplane tonight, and uh, we, of course, was actually.
Putting together a presentation so.
Uh uh it it, you know, we really were kind of stretched in.
If anybody would ever like. It's not a technical job, really, uh, but just.
Do some of the publicity stick things out on, meet up, stick things on the calendar. Uh, yeah, we can always use uh, some more publicity people, Robert Lovetts helping, putting together the uh.
Uh announce uh.
Presentation. So yeah, volunteers are always welcome. So.
With that. Now that I've acted on about all that uh, we do still have our main presentation of the evening. And uh so as advertised uh, we remembered, and again Grant Taylor.
Are going to continue on and uh tell us about uh.
But.
Kind of.
Diagnosing a real world network problem.
So I'll turn it over to Lee. Alright.
Uh.
Share screen here. If I.
Find the right one.
Think that's it.
There we go!
Alright!
There is a nagging problem that I've been dealing with for a long time.
And one of the interesting things when Grant and I started this discussion on basic remote data capture a couple years ago.
Couple months ago, rather.
Was the fact that it would help me.
Diagnosed the problem.
And that is.
This is a server out on a client client site.
It's a open sushi, 15.5 server current.
It has 2 windows, vms running on it.
And the windows begins.
Are happy.
Except for one thing.
Okay, drop the news.
Hang on a second.
Uh! You need to twiddle a bit.
I know, I know, I know.
Um. There's a little white light.
That.
Lee, and.
As.
Tested my slides. Kind of walk through it.
And uh, we actually solved his problem over the weekend.
But, um, we're going to reenact it, and he left it in the.
Configurate.
I took it out, but I think I put it back by mistake.
So.
Some of this is proma.
But it is the last 2 presentations.
Uh base. We did prior to this one.
Were.
Build up.
To tonight's base was an aside how to do things last month securely.
And then this is a real world example.
That Lee and I went through. I think.
Saturday or Sunday afternoon.
And identified.
With his environment.
In probably less than an hour and a half, including the time of him setting up.
Going through the steps on the slides that I presented earlier, so he could securely.
Remotely capture traffic.
Off the system and identify what was wrong with networking.
And once we knew what was wrong we were able to find.
What was causing it.
Crap.
Alright! Grant.
Uh, I'm gonna have to.
Get some help. Here.
Okay.
What's up?
This is what we.
Found right.
Yes, that is the functional setting. You want to turn that to a 1 to break things.
Ah, okay. I got it.
Uh. And so what's wrong with this.
Uh.
Not syscall um.
Is it Cisco.
I think he had. Dash P, don't you.
Ah!
Cis, control, Sd.
You can also just echo a 1 into a path.
Um.
So.
No, there. There was a Cis control.
Yeah, I'm conflating Cisco with system. Ctl.
Trisis control, dash, W.
Your value equals one.
Is there a module that's not loaded at present?
Proxisnet, ridge.
You.
I think you need a period.
Between net and bridge and your Cis control statement.
There we go!
Okay.
Thanks.
This is.
Oops!
Go ahead!
No, you're fine. Go ahead!
So this is the problem.
And it has been hanging around a long time.
Ah, unfortunate! Well, let's see. Hang on a second.
Unfortunately this is a windows.
Window.
You make that phone bigger.
Breeze.
Properties on the left hand side.
Danny, better.
Problem is neither one of these 2 Vms.
Can actually.
Much better. Thanks, good.
Use the Internet because Dns is broken.
The evidence here is, if you try to ping a host.
Full size.
Realist time out.
Now there's a simple way to fix that.
Just kill the firewall.
In which case.
It'll work.
And so that's what I've been doing for a couple years here, because these vms are not used in production.
They've been. They're used for development purposes. In fact, right now, they're not used at all.
If this was a production situation, the problem would be a lot more important and.
I would have had to solve it a couple years ago.
So, anyway, that's the history.
That make sense to everybody.
In this, in in these, in these vms.
With the firewall.
Not running.
Dns, works.
If I turn the firewall on.
That's probably cached.
Yeah, probably. Cash.
IP config.
Slash dns or something, I think.
Oh, God!
I that's back from the Xp days for me.
Bridge.
You know the old saying where I cut my teeth was, if you can't figure something out, give it to the unix guys, they'll figure it out.
So you can pick the IP address 1, 4, 2, 51, 96.
I can pick an IP address.
If I can type straight. I was. Gonna say.
But you can. But Dns will not resolve.
I hate. I hate windows because I'm I mean it doesn't have. And it's lookup is too many characters. So I just.
Paying a site.
And it can't. The Dns traffic.
The Dns query.
Cannot get a response.
When the windows, vms.
Send it out.
And of course, windows being very descriptive.
He doesn't know what the what the error is. He just says it could not find the host.
Okay.
So when Lee.
Describe this to me.
2 ish months ago. It's like.
Well, my go to branch to reach 4. In the box is a network.
And that.
Kind of there. We were also dealing with something.
On the discuss mailing list dns timeout.
Related to something with.
Demark. I think.
So Dns is the Dns servers outside the Firewall.
Well, the Dns server's at the router.
This machine is internal.
And.
And the firewalls on running on the machine.
Obviously.
Well.
In this case.
This is the server that's actually on site.
We're yeah.
Here is the.
Bridge, device.
Obviously, when you have a Vm running on a machine.
You can't use the network interface itself. You have to add a bridge device.
So both the host and the Vms can see that.
Can can see the bridge as opposed to the actual Ethernet port.
So this is BR 0, that is the one.
That gets an IP address.
Internally.
And then.
The Dns server is the router.
Which is that 2, 54.
Which is also the default route.
Or the machine.
That track.
So we have a bridge device.
We have a virtual nick.
On each. Vm.
And then we have a.
Bridge, device.
On the host.
To which everybody connects.
And the bridge device on the host is the one that is configured with.
The network address.
Another important thing is the host itself.
Can do dns lookups without a problem.
Oh!
Okay.
I believe.
Yeah.
That that was another symptoms.
Bureau.
Symptoms.
Feature.
And the firewall now is running.
Although there is some weird.
IP table stuff. Here.
That I never did never have figured out.
But one of the.
Clues, is.
The fact that there's a bunch of IP table stuff in here from Docker.
So there is some.
My original assumption was, there is some kind of interaction between iptables and system. D.
Or just uh firewall. Do you rather.
And since Firewall D. Is managed by system, D.
And it is totally obfuscated from a data standpoint, because everything is done in a.
Basically a linked list. It's a pain in. But to troubleshoot.
It's all.
The only.
The the tool that we have.
There's a firewall manager and Susie which is part of, and I've talked about this before.
You know the BR. 0 is the internal interface.
And that internal zone has.
A bunch of stuff Dhcp Dns over Tls.
Mdns Samba samba ensem is what you need for sat for Samba.
And then ssh.
And it should accept Dns, and it should accept Dhcp.
Because.
BR, 0 is.
In that internal zone.
And at 1 point is a troubleshooting step. I also added, H. 0.
In the internal zone, but didn't make any difference.
Okay, that makes sense.
I hear something in the background, but I.
If it's somebody speaking who wants to be heard? We can't understand. I I think it was Steve. He was muted.
By the way, Steve, glad to see you back. I guess you got your phone working.
Okay, so.
What what would we want to do here? At this point.
Um.
This would be a case where.
I would start.
Um tcp dump, or since we have now made remote.
Capturing work with wireshark.
Um, I would.
Sniff the bridge, interface.
While it's in its broken configuration.
And look at the traffic.
To see if what we expect is there or not.
Okay.
By the way, this this is my.
Um.
Safe Window.
Whenever I'm fooling around with.
Firewalls or config files.
Or whatever the changes you have to make, similar any situation like we're doing now.
As grant mentioned.
I have a tab open here. I'm logged in as root.
If something breaks, I have an open connection to go in and resolve the problem.
Here's here's a window that I was working in.
Notice that we have.
The offline added.
Hmm.
Here.
This is the.
The line in the pseudo file.
Which means that this authentication option applies.
To the pseudo command.
Here's is here is.
Not damn it.
This.
Uh.
Whoops. I didn't put it now.
We didn't need it now.
So here is the pseudo line, which is what I use.
Here is the one with.
The defaults.
That we added in this was.
Etsy Suders.
Tutors.
Okay.
Here's the same thing in the Su. File.
I added that here, while we were talking about it.
So at this point.
I should be able to.
Capture data.
You have the.
Man handy.
Yeah.
So before you hit enter.
You see that he has the dash? Capital! A.
To forward the agent.
On his connection.
And he is logging into the Wsd system.
And using sudo.
Which will leverage the authentication I presented earlier this evening.
To grant his normal, unprivileged user.
The necessary security to be able to run Tcp dump.
Which is a privileged process.
Can that.
Command as is, will run on the remote system.
Are you gonna add the end of that to bring it back and show up locally.
So here's the rest of the commands we need for Tcp dump.
That.
Routes it to standard out.
Which is then piped to wireshark in this case onto my local machine.
For display.
Window window. Who's got the window.
Good question.
There it is!
So.
You now see wireshark.
Running on his local workstation.
Sniffing traffic.
With the help of Tcp. Dump.
Started securely.
On the remote system.
Now.
Realize that I am looking at Bridge 0.
Port, 53.
Well.
Why am I getting traffic.
That.
And and why is it going all over the world.
I have a snarky answer.
Because windows is chatty.
Okay.
So.
If you.
At this point.
No seeing the traffic going to the bridge interface.
I had asked Lee.
If we could, rather than the bridge interface.
If we could sniff the actual.
Ethernet, interface.
That.
Traffic should be going out.
Because of the experience I have tracing things and dealing with things like this like.
Wanted to make sure it was getting through.
So that.
That Tcp dump was bridge 0.
That was just outgoing requests that weren't coming back or.
Right.
That is part of the problem.
That that was part of the problem. Notice that everything was going out. There was nothing coming back.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
So the next.
Snap.
Was to look at just the traffic on.
ETH 0.
So same command. Just.
A different interface.
And there's no Dns queries.
So.
And if you would please.
Poke, and it'll sign out. But yeah.
So we know the windows. Chatiness was happening. Lee has initiated a known.
Happening, manual test.
But it's not.
Going out, the 8 0 interface.
That's about the time I went. Hmm.
I wonder!
And it took me another 10 min to find what I wanted to check.
And that's when we found, and I had to do some searches to find things.
Uh, but we found.
That.
IP tables.
Traffic.
Filtering is being applied.
To bridge traffic.
So what that means?
Is what is a normally a layer. 3 filtering operation on routed or forwarded traffic.
Is being applied.
To layer 2.
Bridged.
Traffic.
Are you gonna show the um the role in the IP cables or.
It's not.
IP. Tables rule that changes, that.
It is a kernel tunable.
That changes, that.
Yes.
IP tables will either.
It always filters layer 3, and you can make it filter above.
Um.
Back when I started dealing with it.
Filtering layer. 2 bridged traffic was an option. You had to turn on.
It was while working with Lee.
That I learned that that's now the default.
It's like.
Let's turn it off for a few minutes.
So.
Lee, if you would.
Um.
You.
Well, the 1st thing I was gonna show is.
You. You came up with the bridge.
Nf filter nf call IP tables.
Yep.
And that's where we came up with his value.
And I think I had some 4 letter explosives when I saw that.
And so the firewall itself is still enabled, and you have not changed anything, and queries are failing at present correct.
Um.
What is that bridge in F call Ibm's Bridge at Point.
3, so nf. Is short for net filter, which is the.
IP tables.
Filtering. Then net filter is just the internal code name.
That has existed since.
2.4, I think, and it wasn't until.
Recently with nft tables that things changed, but.
That go harks back.
So what this is doing is it's saying.
Net filter.
Apply to bridged traffic.
Or apply. IP. Tables, or.
Call net filter, IP tables on bridged traffic. There's some word sniffing that happens.
When it's set to one, it means apply. IP. Tables.
To bridged traffic.
So you need additional rules to.
Enable.
To allow that traffic to flow.
Without those most firewalls are written.
As if they're working on layer. 3 operations, routing or port forwarding, or something.
When you want to apply IP tables.
Layer. 3. Process.
To layer 2 bridged frames. You can, but it requires additional rules.
And in some ways you have some additional.
Virtual interfaces and additional Options.
Like, in.
Br, 0.
In interface.
8 0. It gets really weird, and it's crossing a layer boundary.
It can mess with things. It can be good, but you need to know what it is and want it.
So I had asked Lee.
Let's try disabling that and see if the uh.
Dns, queries start working.
Is that gonna open up all bridge traffic.
Yes.
There's.
These other big traffic.
What it does is it tells the Colonel not to apply IP tables.
To layer 2 bridged traffic.
If you are routing from something else.
IP tables is still applied.
You're routing from something else.
IP tables are still.
Where I usually see this is.
The used case. I had.
Was um.
F. 0 connected to LAN.
Bridge, 0.
Was its own independent thing that had multiple vms or.
User mode Linux environments connected to it.
But it was like.
0, and I called it Bri 0.
2 like.
Might as well be 0 and E 3.
And I was routing between those interfaces.
And I would apply IP. Tables as if it was E. 0 E. 3.
When bridging.
IP. Tables, is enabled.
It applies the same set of rules.
Differently. So it 1st applies at the routed level.
And then it also applies the same set of rules.
To the bridged.
Traffic.
And you need different rules to accommodate that.
Or if you're not.
I think most people don't actually want.
To apply IP tables filtering to bridged.
Traffic.
Historically, if you wanted to filter traffic, that's what eb tables as an Ethernet, bridging tables.
Was 4.
So diagnostic purposes. I asked him to use that Cisco.
To cause the kernel to not.
Apply. IP. Tables.
To bridged.
Traffic.
Now that you've done that, go back over to your wireshark window, please.
So we can see his ping to Omni worked.
Multiple other things. And if you flip back to the wireshark you should see bi-directional.
Dns, traffic.
Posted.
Let me go ahead and restart it.
Oh, good. Okay.
I thought you had it running in the background. Sorry.
So we see standard query and response going through.
So.
That.
Told me.
Everything I needed to know about what the problem was.
IP tables, was filtering his bridge traffic, which.
My opinion, based on the environments I've worked in.
He does not need, and actually wants to not have.
Did you run the wireshark with the on the bridge?
Uh.
See the see, the responses that because before we seem traffic, go out and knock them back.
Fair.
Please.
Yeah, so here's the query and the response.
Is that running against the bridge interface or the 0 interface right now.
He didn't stop at it.
E, 0.
Yeah, can you stop it and change it back to the 0 interface?
As we're talking.
Bridge.
The bridge.
I'm sorry. Bridge interface.
Oh, okay.
Deep chatting windows again.
But I don't know if this is the appropriate time to ask it.
Threw it out there and throw it out. There.
Cause. Main reason might not be appropriate a conversation for later. But now I don't really have a question.
About the networking part of it. But since you're doing something when you said remote system, you meant just another part of the same server.
But it's remote, because it's something contained inside a docker.
Container.
No um.
No, no, no, no.
Uh. The this physical server.
That I am.
Alright! Where's my show? Went.
Okay, this is a shell window right here.
Yes.
This main server.
Is in Kirkwood.
This is at one of our clients in Kirkwood.
The sure. The physical machine is called main server.
That that physical machine.
I am connected to here.
With virtual machine manager.
And this is the Wsd. Onsite server.
And there are 2 vms.
On that server.
In addition to.
Open! Sushi!
Which runs.
Basically samba.
For the office.
Okay. Okay.
The main question I'm asking is, I'm asking, really, what is a doctor? Is it a simple container, or on even a remote system?
If it has an host OS on that, and a docker container is a conductor container more like another.
Sub vm.
No! I I.
In other words, during the time that the Colonel.
Ah, docker, container.
Is, a.
Segregated part of the file system.
That is identified as a container.
And it contains executable code.
Which is run by the Docker Demon.
But.
Right now. There are.
7.
2, 4, 6, 7.
Docker containers running on this server.
That have absolutely nothing to do with what we've been talking about.
Okay.
I I've done only a little bit of docker. That's why I'm asking. I supported a client.
That was a medical clinic.
They want ran a certain program. They found the easiest to run on.
Amazon, or.
Or.
One of the.
Um.
Digital ocean or something. Right now. It's been so long.
And I get a memory dump right after I didn't have to support it anymore.
But it had 2 containers. One did backup.
But running code.
Runs within that container, because.
The master Colonel runs everything on a particular machine.
It runs the host OS. It runs the container, and if a container contains executable code, in which time.
The kernel test those processes that are actually code within the container.
It actually is, whatever that's.
What you're talking about in this bridge is.
Yeah, they're but they're the bridge has nothing to do with the container.
But.
If.
The bridge. The bridge is networking.
And this is one of the containers.
And right here I just connected to that container.
And I ran a bash.
Shell inside the container.
Yes.
And this is.
In. I am now inside the container.
Yes.
Right.
But let's say, let's say this container like my example. The customer I supported the backup program.
Wasn't installed with the native package of.
The actual virtual machine.
The.
Backup software only came installed, and they actually was of the backup program.
Only once the docker was container was mounted or made active.
At boot.
So the kernel would then be running.
Things outside the container of the native.
Applications on that server. But if backup software, which were executables whenever it gave control over processes that were owned to that container.
So let's say, my backup program.
Backed up remotely. It needed network access, because it would then.
Back up to an s. 3 bucket on Amazon, or or whatever.
It might need.
Network rules that the container knows about to get outside the container, to see the network through the host that it ran on.
So they could see the remote S. 3 bucket so they could.
The backup itself.
In some place to be stored.
Well, you're you're basically just describing the application.
For IP. Tables. When Docker is installed.
You know, Docker is installed on this server because of that one application that we've got running. It's a green, the green bone ability scanner.
And when you install Docker.
Docker sets up. IP. Tables to handle all the traffic for the docker system.
Yes.
And and within these rules.
Are accept rules, forward rules. I don't see an table.
I think that's handling side docker itself. But basically.
Scroll further down.
Is it? What.
Well, I sound like I mean, you're describing that option was.
The the. There were rules that were going, that when it was inside the container it was chatting. But there wasn't rules on the.
Operating system outside the docker on the same machine that would then let it see the Internet.
So you had a bunch of chatter that went nowhere. Yet it still would take up processing time and.
The the chatter that went nowhere was due to the kernel.
On the system.
Because the chat, the chatting was from the Vm. To the bridge device.
To the kernel, to the outside world.
Doctor was not involved.
The the fact that dockers installed on here has not had nothing to do with the problem that we were seeing.
Okay.
But that's what I'm saying. I'm confused exactly what.
All docker, even though it's like a sub installed.
OS. With its own Sub Directory.
Docker. This machine is both a virtual machine hosting some windows, vms.
And a docker host.
Hosting, multiple docker containers.
Um. The problem at hand.
Had nothing to do with Docker.
The symptoms were inside the vms.
Okay, because the networking is actually always handled by the.
By the kernel itself.
Effectively. There's some nuances.
Yeah.
Who we thought.
It's been enlightening what parts I've been able to wrap my head around so.
But you asked what the remote aspect was.
The key point.
Is.
Lee is running Tcp. Which is a nice sniffer, but it only has certain capabilities.
That is running on the machine in Kirkwood.
Lee is sitting in his basement, and I'm not sure which little Burb he's in. But I believe it's not Kirkwood either, anyway.
Where wireshark is running on Lee's machine is miles away.
From the machine where Tcp dump is running.
So Dsp Dump is running in Kirkwood.
And.
Analyzing with Wireshark remotely at his house.
I I sort of understand some of that, because at one time.
I don't.
On Boeing servers for boeing air.
Well, in Florida. We're Boeing. Here in Florida is Boeing space.
And I would have to log in on my windows. Machine contact some way across the coast.
Find a basket.
Drone to the bastion, and once I was on the bastion.
And I could see servers with inside Boeing that.
Never available outside. You know the the internal boings.
Right.
And Boeing is a good example of security where you want the bare minimum installed on secure systems.
And there are people who will tell you that Wireshark and the dissectors it has is potentially an attack surface.
So that can be run.
On a workstation that Lee probably doesn't want to format and reinstall workstation, but arguably.
It is.
Potentially a throwaway machine, or could be.
And it can receive traffic from a server.
In a remote environment.
And analyze it locally with all the capabilities and configuration.
Um.
Another example, where I used to use this.
Is, I had my workstation, my office in Columbia, and I would log into routers in um.
Glasgow and Avars, and Centrelia, and Springfield.
And I would have.
Those.
Captures come back. Real time.
To Wireshark, running on my workstation, where I had all my preferences and.
Things set up to make analyzing traffic simpler. So the remote.
Is.
2 separate systems.
With some amount of network space between them.
Yeah, there's.
Sub networks that we don't see if we're just on the ordinary Internet.
I also work for Sis global.
For a bit.
And there's banks that connect back to. You know our money isn't.
The money. We think it is anymore. We got folding paper and.
Change in our pocket.
But all real money is just.
Numbers.
Banks, but not the banks we know.
There's companies like Fis, global.
That actually.
The banks.
By programs.
And the our real money is.
In computers, in the computers only.
They route information in between.
These.
Banks that you don't know about.
Right where the money really is digitally.
And.
The bank teller that you go in and they type in a terminal.
Them terminals. They type into.
Deal with these products.
You can get a report. It'll come from some other state where the money really is.
And print.
And I had to set up printers and some networking. I'm not networking on myself, but I'm the guy that.
Uh change things on servers and.
Change configurations in printers, or at least can.
Made sure that the numbers in the printer were the correct IP. Numbers.
And if you take them same, it numbers into a web browser.
They never resolved, because, even though it's all.
IPV. 4.
It's.
Some frame relay stuff.
That isn't tied to the Internet that we see.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, there's your separate networks. So a lot of times they're physical. But.
In today's network world. The VPN serves that kind of purpose.
You know I've got a VPN. Set up here on one of the one of the servers in the shop.
And when I'm traveling.
I uh start up my laptop.
Start the VPN.
And I am physically connected over a virtual private network.
To the office.
Everything I do is totally secure.
Unless the Nsa. Decides they don't like me. For some reason.
Uh, what one other point I wanted I wanted to make is.
Wireshark is a great tool with a lot of capabilities for dissecting network traffic.
But wireshark can't run on that server.
Wireshark can't run on any server that we manage.
You may want to guess why.
I'll bite my tongue.
No.
That allows you to know too much.
We'll play.
In areas you aren't supposed to be touching, even though you have admin rights.
Now I had nothing to do with it.
Why would Wireshark not run on that hold on that server?
Who's.
Then it has something to do with the network layer that it.
Nope, Nope, me.
Nope.
Can't see inside and outside at the same time.
Not nothing to the network. No, no, it's even simpler than that.
Software dependencies.
What is this?
What's that interface.
Oh, it's a Ms. Windows. Machine.
No, no.
Okay.
The text, console.
Okay, and why would that be a problem.
Well, graphics, most people will tell you don't work in a text console. I'm not people.
No server that we manage has windows on X windows on it.
Okay. So Wireshark can't run on. Okay.
But it ain't that hard to put an X server on a windows box.
It's not a windows box.
To Linux. Box.
And it ain't going to happen.
There's there's 2.
There's too much crap and X windows bad enough. We gotta run it on a workstation. I'm never going to have it on a server.
There's 3.
Where you're taking the information off the machine.
That you don't mind loading up with the book, and if if Wireshark happens to blow up my local workstation is my problem, it's not the clients.
But but.
Also go review some of the early published material on the X Server.
Server and client are flipped.
The the server.
It doesn't make any difference. I'm not running X on a server period.
But you don't.
An X. Server.
Which you do. You have to have an extra.
Ex uh client program.
On the server.
And you have to be able to.
Run that X code on the server so you can share the screen.
To the local server that you're using to view it. It's just like Vnc.
If it.
I have one more comment about X.
The server is not the server.
Your client that you perceive is windows.
Is actually.
The one that does all the work in X anyway.
The application.
That's the Gui word. The the program still has to have X installed on the server.
So the program can run.
And generate the graphic screen that you.
Display on the remote X server.
I think that's incorrect.
You you get.
No, you need the. You had dependency.
You have to have the graphics, libraries.
Yes.
The actual, x.
Executable itself.
Only runs on what we perceive.
Is the client, but in ex terminology, from the original books, cause, I own.
There was like 8 books altogether, and I own 3 of them O'reilly way, beginning, we're talking.
Yep.
Motif was the the latest greatest than anything.
Graphical that we could set.
Or.
If I can interject real quick.
When having this discussion.
I tend to refer to it as the.
X. 11. Display. Server.
Yes.
And the x. 11. Client application.
So.
Um. Yes.
With.
Proper network connectivity and Ssh forwarding helps.
Um. Lee could set up an X 11 display server.
At his house, which he probably has one, unless it's Wayland.
And then he could run wireshark as an x 11. Client application.
To display on the X 11 Displacer in his house.
Yes.
But that is additional networking problems. That is additional soft.
Tendency.
Yes, it is, it is chatty.
And this.
Completely avoids.
Any x. 11. Dependencies on.
The remote server.
Yeah, cause, there's.
Ex lib. And some other thing is the very lowest thing. By the time we get to Nome and Katie there's a bunch of other.
Things.
I've.
Tacked on top of that.
You can get X 11 applications to run on a headless system without.
Needing a window manager. You can get it fairly small.
But it is still additional dependencies that.
Often do not need to be there.
Well, it's a convoluted mess, but one of the 1st things when I got.
A 46, powerful enough to start playing with. X is I ran Xi's and then read the manuals, and seeing how it looks.
I'll flip backwards in terminology.
Cause all you're doing is moving 2 little black dots around.
Same uh excises wherever you move the mouse cursor.
Do screwy looking eyeballs in the middle of the screen.
Eyeballs keep looking at wherever the mouse rolls.
Yeah, but but the bottom line is terminology. Aside.
X does.
Have some weird, some backwards terminology, but.
You cannot run wireshark on that remote server unless you install a bunch of dependencies that will allow it to execute.
Yeah, okay.
You don't need a window manager. You don't need a you know. You don't need other things, but that is Cruft. That doesn't need to be there.
And it will never be installed on any server that I manage.
It makes a mess, I mean, I went through a lot of trouble, but I was in.
Learn everything new at that phase. So I played.
Poke did everything just a little bit to see whether I could wrap my head around it.
Man.
It.
Because there's a lot of jump in between.
Plain and experiencing is a wonderful thing to do on equipment at your house. Um!
It's a great opportunity, whereas if you crash something.
Boom.
Well, crap!
No, you don't play with this stuff on somebody else's production machine.
I have to something in my house. I don't have an outage.
You never play with stuff on somebody else's production machine.
You don't wanna have that conversation.
Prior to them, showing you the door.
So we're at the point that Lee and I parted ways.
Saturday or Sunday. Things were functional. He knew.
So the firewall is still enabled. If you go and check the status of Firewall D, it's still enabled correct.
Yep.
So.
And we left it at.
You have a workaround.
I would argue. He doesn't want to.
Apply IP tables to bridged traffic. But that's a completely different discussion compared to where we started.
Why isn't Dns working.
We now have an answer to that, and the question turns into.
Do we care about.
The configuration that broke.
Dns.
Well whether we care or not.
This is the way to.
Implement, a.
Permanent, fix.
Until you come up with.
Another problem. So another problem.
Yep.
So that.
We're now.
3 base presentations, and arguably a main presentation.
Into network, sniffing.
Doing it remotely, and doing it securely.
With a real world application demonstration of how it enabled you to solve.
A multi year problem.
And you can see that we found it in less than an hour from the start. Time.
Of actually sniffing.
Which this has been a reoccurring theme to me.
Something's weird. I don't know what's going on in the network. I wish I could see something immediately.
Start screaming networks never in my head.
It's a tool I reach.
Frequently.
Um.
It provides visibility and information.
That means you're not blind to something.
Because, Lee, I'll be willing to bet you went through lots of log files trying to solve this over the years.
Yeah, the the point. I got tired of doing it, that's for sure.
Yep.
But, thanks thanks to some good tools and another pair of eyeballs looking at things.
We got the problem at least.
Fixed at this point.
But how's your rod traffic back to.
You're you routed back to your local machine, where you do have X and.
And wireshark installed right.
Right.
Yes, um, he is Ssa. Team from the machine in his house.
To the server at the clients office.
And he is having Tcp dump right.
To standard out.
That's the left hand side of the pipe, and the right hand side of the pipe is Wireshark.
Running at his house.
Reading from standard in.
So Tcp dump on the remote server is doing the actual, sending the packets.
Of interest.
Through the Ssh connection.
2 wireshark, listening at his house.
So you don't need any configuration on that. That just automatically.
The the pipe is not routing to the.
The configuration needed is the um. I think the dash u.
Disable. Some buffering alters how some things are printed by Tcp. Dump.
The dash, W. Space.
Dash.
Is the dash W. Says, right to this file. Big air quot.
And these space dash after it.
Is the long established Unix Convention.
For standard out.
And then sub for writing.
And then subsequently the other side of the pipe.
The dash I space.
Dash.
From standard in yeah.
Wireshark read in from this file, and since it's read operation referencing dash that says, read from standard in.
So we're writing to standard out.
On the remote server.
Across the Ssh connection, and we're taking that standard out and we're plumbing it with the pipe.
Into Wireshark's standard in.
That make sense.
Eventually it will.
Feel free to ask questions, and I'm happy to discuss this further on. Any of the mailing lists or my real addresses there feel free to email me.
Uh, if I can find it, I will.
So what's the 0 is that.
Um the day.
What's the dash? S. 0.
S.
0. The dash S is snapshot length, as in how much of the packet to capture.
Um.
0 means get all of it.
Okay.
You.
25 years ago, when I was 1st exposed.
To capturing. There was a lot of.
How much can we actually legally sniff.
And there's been some evolution. It's mostly we're the network Admins. We've told people we have the capability and we will use it for troubleshooting. We can sniff as much as we want.
But if I only wanted the first.st
IP header.
I feel like I want to capture.
20 Byte.
Of the packet.
Um. A lot of people would also capture up to 60 Byte to get the IP. Header, the Tcp. Header, and a little bit, but not.
Potentially all of the.
Maybe.
1,500.
Byte packet. I you know, I wanna note, look at the flow. Who's talking? But I don't care about the payload, so don't give me the last.
1.4 K.
Of the packet. I only care about the 1st part. Who's talking? To whom.
What we're doing.
I almost always want to look at things at the application level and see what's happening.
So.
I include the dash S. 0, snapshot 0. Give me everything.
Makes sense.
Yep. Cool thanks.
Mhm.
And I'd have to check the man page for wireshark. What the dash K.
Does. I guess I can check that.
Fairly quickly.
I just posted this on chat. If anybody wants to grab a copy.
And then you can. Uh, you know. Look at, demand Page, and you and dissect it.
You know, most of them are fairly explanatory.
Port, 53.
I don't remember. I'm not sure. But can I cap you in the S.
Uh the capital U is unbuffered.
And that has to do with. How often does Tcp dump.
Print things on the output.
Okay.
Uh line buffered versus character buffered, or something like that.
S. 0.
Uh snapshot size of 0, which 0 means the entire packet.
Okay.
Mike.
Sorry say again.
Well, you just went over that. I asked about it, and you wouldn't explain it to me.
I'm looking out the.
Dash k for wireshark.
Um.
Start capture. Session immediately.
Is what the dash K. Does.
So we're taking multiple components. Ssh, as a transport.
We're using what we went through tonight.
To.
Authenticate, make authentication to Sudo much easier.
Transparent.
Get out of the way, and not prompt.
And we're using Sudo to launch wireshark.
Saying telling, I'm sorry to launch Tcp dump, saying, we want to listen to 8 0.
We care about stuff on Port 53.
Don't buffer the traffic.
Give me the entire packet.
And write what you get to standard out.
We're then plumbing that standard out.
Into Wireshark's standard end, which is the dash I space dash.
And start to capture right away.
I think what's confusing me is the um like if you if you were to do um.
That goes out into standard out, or something to standard out and.
And do a pipe to less.
You know, because your Sso. Aged on that server, the less that would be running would be on that server.
Ah! It depends where it gets very tricky.
Um, the.
Lee, if you would. Highlight from User Ben Sudo through the W dash.
I mean, just not not this example, just like a normal, you know, you're just doing a normal pipe.
Into less. You know something into less than.
The less that would be running would be.
Local to that server.
No.
We were at stage. Where are your assets to.
Um.
If you had a normal Ssh session. Yes.
This is remotely launch. This is asking. Ssh.
To remotely launch Sudo with the parameters.
Right.
This is not a normal interactive. Ssh session.
Right.
Ssh. Remote commands are a very fun thing.
Both.
White hat and dark hat.
So, Lee, if you had a weird email issue from these servers in the future.
Do you think you would be inclined to.
Poke at Wireshark to see if you could figure something out, or maybe ask a friend to help interpret something.
I would most certainly.
Would you be interested in reproducing this? To have this capability for other clients.
Um.
Certainly.
This has actually been pretty.
Pretty, enjoyable.
Solving problems and learning at the same time.
I would consider that a Good Friday night.
You know.
Where were you guys last Friday night? We needed some guy was uh.
Having problems with is, where is wireless? Ah.
Device.
Uh the best solution for anything wireless is a shotgun or a.
Um Gallagher hammer.
Yeah.
And when you're referring to last Friday night uh what? This was 2,600 meeting or.
Yeah, you were here. Gary.
I was not 2,600 meeting this month. Uh I I.
Phil is Phil is here.
That was the slack meeting.
We had Friday, because Thursday was July 4.th
Ah, okay. Okay. Okay.
Guy uh.
I'm.
There's always the running.
Argument.
Ah! 2,600 worldwide always meets on the 1st Friday of the month, and the running joke is.
Everybody who's at 2,600 meetings. It is either.
Uh of.
Long married, or.
The old joke about only geeks or techy meetings on a Friday night. Uh, you're not. Gonna you're not gonna find a lot of uh.
Uh.
Social situations going on there. So.
But.
But anyway, the.
For the 2,600 group is a good group, too. They they do a lot of uh.
Lot of good stuff.
So.
Um.
Well, this is really.
Really.
Then uh.
Mind hurting, I mean.
There is a reason I read multiple books to get to the point. I could make this happen and distill it to.
Functionally, 5 slides.
Yes, uh, I mean it uh been a great eye.
And I really thank you 2 guys for putting in.
All the time. Effort uh came up with the concept of doing the series of talks, and uh.
Yeah, this has really been great presentation learned a lot.
That'll be.
We, we.
There's.
A 4.th
Iteration in the future about decrypting encrypted traffic.
Now, that's going to be interesting.
Yeah.
Yes, it will be cool.
Oh!
This also? Ah!
I think our our last few minutes of conversation here. The fact that it was 2 people working on this presentation.
Ah, you know, coming at it. Slightly different background, slightly different to.
Approaches and.
Came up with this great synthesis, how how it should work, and.
Oh!
It's 1 of the neat things about being part of this group about being a presenter in this group.
Is, yeah, yeah, you know.
Yeah, certainly, in any particular meeting, you hopefully will learn some things.
From the people you chat with in the meeting.
Uh, but yeah, if you wanna take some time and just pair up with somebody.
Work on a little problem.
Doesn't have to be a.
Huge.
Big presentation. Sometimes just a little quickies are a lot of fun and enlightening.
So what?
And that leads back to something that we've been talking about. Off and on for a couple of months.
We are intending.
To upgrade um.
The Debian operating system.
On uh!
On Bach, our main group server. Some point I was gonna pull up.
Pull the trigger and do it. I'm getting tired of waiting. Okay? So I mean, at least feeling that that you know we're we're pretty darn close to ready to do it. What was mentioned.
By a couple of you during the meeting was, you know.
But you can't. Can't do this stuff at work, I mean, damn if I did this on the work machine and something blew up. I get fired, and uh, of course, that means we'll do it on your home machine. Well, home machines.
Yeah, there's only one user. It's you. If the machine goes down, if it crashes, if it doesn't work, you know, it's you know.
Doesn't hurt anybody else. So you you get sloppy. And yeah, you just try and throw it together and.
Um, but something like this. Uh, if you.
Well, we'd like to volunteer to be part of the upgrade.
Um, you know, this is a multi user system. A bunch of people log in a bunch of people depend on the mail system that.
The the website uh the the archives.
So uh yeah, we can't just.
Say, if it doesn't work we may be down for a few days uh one comment as I'm cleaning up here.
What's the last thing I do before I close my safety window? Here.
Test to make sure things are working the way you expect them to.
Don't get locked out.
Make sure I can log in again. Ah!
Very good.
Uh your sudo access.
You didn't. Ssh, with your agent forwarding.
True.
Log.
I'm not used using them.
Huh!
I'm not used to using it.
Fair enough.
Um, I will say that it is best practice to only forward agents.
To when logging into systems. You trust.
Ah! It's not.
It's the same dash. Aws! D.
Yeah.
Yeah, you don't even need the Sudo. There.
So so you're automatically pseudo. Now, your team, just you don't have to put in anymore. It's automatically.
No um.
Try it now, please, Lee.
Yeah.
So it when he typed Sudo. I.
It used the new pam module.
To.
Okay.
Ask the agent which he forwarded.
To cryptographically sign something.
That the Pam module was able to decrypt, using the public key.
In his.
Authorize, key, file.
Therefore it.
Trusts that only he has his private key, so it authenticates.
But it does so in the background.
And out of the way.
Streamlining his interface. And this is why I say.
It's better security, because it's using keys instead of passwords. You know, the key I created was 2048 bit.
No password I could ever type.
Is or would type is that strong.
It's faster.
It's less annoying.
To me it is a security. Win.
And um.
You can configure studio like in the pan modules the same way you could do it in the pseudoers, file.
Um.
I think you meant. Did you mean to say you can configure su.
Or I misunderstood your question.
While he's using Sudo.
Um so.
Well, yeah, the the yeah. You're using the the.
You're going through the pan module. So that's what that's you. Then, right.
Su can use the same Pam configuration applied to a different file.
That sudo and sudo i sudo on.
On some systems, su and sudo. I.
Are separate files.
But the idea is.
You add.
The Pam Configuration to.
The things you want to enable it on.
The the just. The thing I'm thinking about is that sudoers.
I'm sure nobody does it. But I mean you don't have to give everybody all all things you can just give. You know.
You can dole out certain.
Capabilities.
Right. The only thing we changed in Sudo. The sudoers file.
Is the environment variable off socket. We told Sudo.
Don't reset that one variable.
And that variable is just a path.
To the agent, Socket.
All of the rest of Sudor's capabilities is still in force, still fully effective.
Um if the suers file only allowed Lee to run.
If config with root, privilege, and nothing else.
That would still be the case.
The only thing changed is how Lee authenticates.
To suit it.
Okay.
I think.
We quite literally added.
A new capability to the Pam framework.
We told sudo, hey.
Start using that new capability for authentication, and then everything else. Sudo is known for.
Is still the same as it was.
Alright, my uh throats getting dry, and I'm getting hungry, so.
Anybody any other questions.
Just done.
It's near tech question.
I'm anxious. No things nerd.
One of the things I wanted to be covering over the next couple of months is.
Is there any way ever played with the Esp. 32 s. Or.
Laura Wang.
Dig, in.
Has anybody played with the technology.
Such as the Esp. 32 s.
Or Laura Wang.
It's not Wi-fi. It's not Bluetooth.
Um.
Spell the Laura WAN.
I'm having trouble differentiating. I think I've been exposed to it and worked with a friend on it. But.
No.
Okay. The 1st part is Laura.
It's.
LORA. For long range radio.
Yeah.
It's a.
Different modulation. That's a short chirp that.
With high gain. Antennas can go 40 miles.
Okay. Yeah.
Where you were tracking.
Buffalo, or whatever where they can tag him.
Since it doesn't come in continually, transmit.
Yeah, you can run it off a battery, you know. Battery can last months cause.
Wi-fi would kill a.
Simple setup button cells rather quickly.
Yeah, uh, Fred. And I looked at this.
He had some 1st hand experience.
I did not, and we didn't mess with it because we were outside of the distance. We live far enough apart.
We couldn't make it work.
Okay, and.
The name by.
Have a question about what a Esp. 32 is.
I'm.
That's a little Microcontroller, right.
They're all microcontrollers like.
What really powers of raspberry pi, and what really.
Borrowers powers in Arduino.
Right. Neither one is an Esp. 32. But yes, we're talking about.
Micro processes that actually.
Called microcontrollers, because they have.
More I/O, but usually always.
Less outright computer off of.
Something to choose on a desktop computer.
Or even a full tablet.
They? They're not as beefy and mattered.
Yeah. Well, there's there's thousands of them out there.
Yes.
Take micro's avrs.
Uh, Ti has a bunch of stuff throughout the range.
Yeah. Esp, 32 is, is.
Of.
Ah microcontroller in that it doesn't run a Linux kernel.
It's it's more similar to an Arduino.
You know.
And they're they're they're good for, you know, dedicated applications like running a.
Date remote data collection with a Lorraine, Laura.
Ah!
You know, wife, you know, radio link back to.
Central point or receiver.
But most of our folks typically run at least run full kernel where they're unix, or Linux.
Yes, and a raspberry pi will run.
Ah!
Of of seriously pair down lining. So they, instead of running.
Lib.
Now a raspberry pi runs a full Linux built for arm.
It can, but you can also.
Right if they if it's.
You can. There's other things other than G. Lib, Z.
There's some.
Things that replace T. Libc that are a little lighter. The other day I seen a presentation on.
On uh!
A Linux operating system called.
Uh.
Void, Linux.
But they still had a void. Linux, with a.
Extra lighter.
Or more static.
Libraries called muzzle or something. You.
Yeah, I mean, there's there's thousands of tools like that out there to build dedicated appliances. But.
You know, if uh if I've got a raspberry pie, I run standard Linux on it uh.
I got a dozen of them in a rack back there, you know, email servers, name servers.
Yeah, I I have a couple of pies. And the thing that I run recently within the last 2 years to run with it was.
Home automation. Yeah, it's a.
Yeah.
Full Linux.
That's why they're they're more for dedicated application purpose built.
Pies. On the other hand, I've got.
6 pi. 4, as you're sitting on a shelf to build a Kubernetes cluster. If I ever find the time to do it.
Might do a presentation on.
But it's still open source software.
It. It's on the fringe of.
You know, regular lining stuff, but it isn't.
Yeah.
Desktop or server, base links, or whatever. But.
Yeah.
It's very tech, I mean, if we're.
Which is, which is a great thing to know about, you know, like you said it did.
It's not what.
You normally have on your desktop at home, or even the server at work. But it's.
Makes the world run. It's good thing to know about Yup.
But I seen well, he passed away. He was another friend of mine a couple of years ago.
He was heavily into the ones that were called Oroids.
Yeah.
Yep. Yep.
Okay, well, a lot of this stuff is made.
And he was interested in having a controller on it, and he had in his little briefcase.
Basically um.
Uh step.
Uh a sand store.
Storage.
Taxable, Net.
Um, probably a Nas network attached storage.
Yes, that's what I'm talking about.
Um.
But it was based on Oroid's not.
Yeah. Uhroid is.
I've got an odroid HU. 4, and have stared at multiple.
They're an arm based Microcontroller, very much so like to pie.
But they target a little bit different market. Um, they also had some.
But I was very interested in, but never.
Purchased.
Wherein it was a modified Xu. 4.
That had a seda.
Controller and a couple of different mounts, so it would either dock directly.
With a uh 3 and a half inch drive or a 2 and a half inch. Drive.
And I thought that was phenomenal like, if you wanted to do.
Um.
Saying, or even Nas.
Where you could send traffic.
And have a smart controller per drive.
And then do your logical system in some way.
Across them, and you had.
Direct network access to every single drive.
Um.
They? O um hard kernel, is the company I purchased.
Things from in the Us, I believe, is based in.
Europe somewhere.
Um.
And they I have, I think they called it the Cloud Shell.
It's a little like 2, inch by 3 inch.
Want to say, O led display.
Has uh.
Say to Controller meant to drive an SSD.
And nice little.
Laser, cut.
Case to put the thing in that makes it like.
3 inches tall by 5 inches wide by 7 inches long.
And it is a.
Whatever you want the little Linux system to be.
I'm thinking about using it.
For a GPS time.
Synchronization.
Now.
I think.
Some of the Linux groups are still existing.
As.
Even though people are getting back together.
And it's.
Groups across the country as though they're.
Local lugs and.
Main reason there's some of this stuff I'm interested in. I'm also.
Him. Radio Guy didn't attend one of.
Unix users thing about a month before last. So.
I've been.
Attending a couple things of your group.
Alright!
And we've got a couple of people with hand backgrounds and.
Have have in the past, so you haven't had a few.
Few presentations from some hands over the years and.
Yeah.
I.
Have been interested in packet, but I.
Never did anything, and I need.
My license is current. I just need to update the address. I moved.
Um.
You say your license is or is not current.
It is current.
Um. It just has my old address, so I have to.
And uh slash mobile, when I call out.
Or I need to. Actually, I need to update it. I just haven't.
Yeah, all the.
Stuff at the Fcc. Has all been changed in the last 5 years.
You. You always had a UR.
They got a universal number, and then.
Cause. I also have a Gmrs.
License I paid for that which is no test, but.
But that's becoming popular in the Florida area. A lot of Ham's also.
Carry those radios do? Because.
If they got family ready.
Relatives.
The.
Gmrs. Licenses by household, not by individual user.
You still have a call sign.
But.
One license covers.
Mom, dad, sister, brother, whatever.
It's more identifying the location.
Um, what capabilities does Gmrs, which I think is general radio service versus Fmrs family mobile radio service, I wanna say, what? What's the benefit of Gmrs over Fmrs.
Okay. Um.
Frs. Is extremely limited in the fact that.
What you buy in that shrink wrap package can't be changed.
Right.
Power limited because it has a attached antenna and cannot be removed.
In other words, its power is limited by.
Right.
You know what came out of the package? Emrs radios like it.
Uh 2 meters, 70 cm.
Amateur radio. In fact, it's.
Uh Gms. Is much fewer frequencies. They're channelized.
Right, hard generalized.
They do have the concept of repeater.
But the antenna is removable so you could do a bag on top of your car, and you would get more gain, even though you're carrying a handheld.
In the car, and there are mo mob.
Gmr's radio. Just more power.
More ability to.
Improve its transmitting capabilities with.
Antennas.
And the power range is similar to ham.
Ham does have a upper limit. I mean, if you're doing experimental stuff.
Weak signal long distance stuff. I gain antennas.
Amateur radio at the end gives you more stuff, whatever. But.
There's 3 levels of testing.
There is a much steeper learning curve to get into all the things you can do.
And there's a whole all of things you can do.
That the other radio services and.
Right.
All around right, that.
Absolutely understood ham versus.
The other, but I wouldn't clear on.
Fres versus Gmrs.
They're very limited. Short range.
Sheep.
Busy, your document.
Packs of 3 or 5 right.
Uh Frs. And just for hanging around the yard with the kids.
They're better than whatever you bought from radio check.
25 years ago that Space patrol thing which I did have one. It was about the first.st
Radio toy that I had.
Uh Frs is better than that. It's FM.
It's it's clear.
And they use it on Disney all the time. People come in as travelers, and.
Yeah.
Um.
I have an unhealthy interest in Usenet, and the likes.
And that bridges.
I want to bridge things.
Both literally and figuratively, to packet.
But.
Especially contemporary.
You get into.
Encryption. You can't have.
And various other things, that.
What I might do with packet nebulous and somewhat of a nonstarter.
Um.
Yes, the by strict code there is no such thing.
Everything is encrypted. It's it's digital. But what they're talking about. An amateur radio is.
You can't conceal.
Purpose of the communication. When they say crypt, it means like.
Spy encoding encrypt not.
Digital formats and.
Correct.
Well encoding and encrypting are 2 very different things.
But you could do.
If you're simply talking about.
Compressing right, which would make it non clear.
Refresh.
Uh for a radio that didn't do compression. But if the compression.
Protocol was known. You're not obscuring the meaning. Somebody would just have to.
Right.
Build a compressor, uncompress.
It's.
To me compression is a form of encoding.
Yes.
But we're talking about obscuring.
The meaning of the transmission. You want a private phone call.
That nobody can. Then over, listen.
Through.
You know.
Some secure set of keys.
That would not be legal on amateur radio.
Right.
Somebody has to have.
The standard. Even if they gotta build.
To to monitor what you are.
Right.
And.
I was also thinking like.
Ssh. Over packet.
Is verboten.
Yes, because somebody else wouldn't have the.
Private.
Or public private key, and then that would be obscured.
Yeah, but.
Not to be monitored if somebody wanted to.
Yeah.
But you mentioned use now right.
Yes.
I played with Houston a long time ago.
I thought bbs were more dead. Synchronet and Fidonet.
And some spin offs using the same protocol as final net is actually quite active. They're not using modems.
They use a.
Serial.
To pack it shim or something right.
Mhm.
And.
There's all sorts of Bvs, especially synchronet.
That's the bbs.
Program. They still have doors. Right? If you.
Mm-hmm.
Back to the bbs. Days.
And they still upload cause. What I was interested in is.
Not net news, but Netmail and rhyme.
Which is gone. But fidosin.
And protocols that use rhyme, though they don't use the 4 number zone stuff.
But there are.
Bbs, message formats that are.
Broadcast across different sets of.
Bvs's.
Yeah.
There are multiple phytochemology networks in existence, both using.
Actual analog modem, emulated analog, or emulated modem, as in.
Device, pretends to be a motive, and sends.
IP packets. And then there's actual IP interface directly into.
Some Bds software.
Um.
But.
No, I said, Usenet, and I'm.
I run multiple actual usenet servers, not.
Bbs's.
Um. I've not looked recently since Google.
Backed away from Usenet.
But prior to Google, backing away.
I was routinely seeing 50 MB.
Of text.
Articles.
A day.
Yeah, there's 2 services online. That's still.
You can buy a large quantity of data on an anniversary date.
And it would be more usenet than I agreed. In the year.
And they carry of.
Thunder news or something, I think, was.
Something I bought on.
You know, the day after Thanksgiving some stuff goes on sale.
Yeah.
There's multiple commercial providers. There's multiple.
Free text providers.
And there's actually a surprising number of people that run their own server.
So. My question to you, then, is.
When was the last time the source code for the C. News.
Nope.
Program right? That ran the server that did.
Well, if I don't network, I mean it's tossing.
It debund.
Because in between.
94 to 2,001.
I ran a scoic system.
Ah! They carried a very limited use. Step feed on record.
Rick, amateur radio stuff, and Tom.
Some electronic, not the whole feed.
Not all of the top? 7.
Right news, groups.
But I ran C news because I was able to through a bbs or.
Uh, we're talking confiserve, Jeannie. Days.
Yeah.
Came up with the.
The code got it to compile on X.
And then ran it for about a decade.
And had to. Some just local guys call. In fact, it was up.
63 guys like in 95, 96.
In the greater Orlando area. They had personal machines and an extra phone line.
And we ran.
Ucp, and we.
You know, connections in between us, and we.
Transferred email for the hobby.
Cause. We're just on the verge of commercially available for.
Non universities do.
Sign up for an account for.
10 bucks a month, and.
Actually be on the.
Um.
Real Internet.
I haven't seen much activity with C. News.
Um. But the Internet news, Damon or IN.
Okay.
Is what I run and have run on and off for the last 15 years.
There's still people running. Diablo.
Uh on windows.
Um! There's.
2 or 3 other names that I'm forgetting at the moment.
That are still.
Hobbyists using it.
Um.
There are even some.
I don't think it's synchronet um.
Not.
Yeah, I've seen the synchronet that also carried some net news.
They got a door to tack it on.
Synchronet today is not synchronet from 90 s.
Okay.
Synchronic from 90 s. Was its own code. From the ground up.
Synchronet today is like functionality. But using open source components.
Yeah.
I actually looked in the well, I built it. I built it on.
Uh my line out server.
Mhm.
And then didn't open the port up to the world. But.
Uh. It actually is mostly C code, not javascript or something.
And I got it to go. It took 2 days, but I finally figured out.
Exactly which questions I was answering long, and got a clean build.
And brought.
My own.
Node.
To log in and prove that it worked. But.
Until I actually.
Want to start carrying one of them. Alternate feeds.
And have a reason to do so too.
I I won't.
Open the port or make it available.
There's enough remote systems I can log into.
To get that fixed. I don't need to be my own.
Are multiple boards that are participating in multiple.
Networks, and it some of them are ftns. There's also.
Some non ftn. It's like uh another.
Brand board had a different protocol.
That was not Ftn. Compatible, but it's functionally the same thing.
Okay.
Yeah, it's.
Still a thing.
The Internet lets us do a lot of fringe.
Um.
Hobbies.
Including retro computing, I'd still like to fire up.
Original model. 4. Hoping not. All the caps went up in flames.
To a smaller.
1st time I powered on.
Excuse us, group.
Alright! Well.
My mouth is very dry at this point. It's been a good conversation.
But uh, I believe I need to bow out for the evening.
Once again, I agree. It's really been a great presentation tonight. Um.
Really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you both. The.
To our 2 presenters and also to the participants. You all brought a lot of.
Good questions and comments, and it really made the evening enjoyable.
I do have.
Couple of quick questions. Ah.
Grant. If you need to get off, you're more than welcome to these are directors. Some of the other folks. Thanks, Bud.
Can't really appreciate it.
Thank you. Grant.
Of.
RS. And Nick uh.
Um, rs, just if you'd like us to.
I mean, if you want to keep your anonymity, that's fine. But if you want us to have a little more clue of who you might be.
Uh, yeah, give us what the rest of your initials are. Uh, Nick. Um, I don't know if you're the nick that I know uh or who knows me? Uh but uh again, if you want to put a back initial, or uh tell us the rest of your name that'd be wonderful. At least I'll know if it's Nick I know by the nick who knows me. Um! So.
And if ah.
If any of you obviously. Ah.
Uh David uh was from Orlando.
Uh, and uh, I'm just curious. If we have people other people from out of town, do we still with us here? Uh.
That could be Nick. It could be RS.
Um.
Bruce. I think you've been at the meetings before, and I don't remember if you're.
In the area, or if you're out of town.
Wendell. I'm not sure if you're the Wendell. I know.
Of, and.
Yes, I'm just saying when.
Winston, Salem, okay.
Great. Thank you.
Nick RS. Bruce.
You want to volunteer where you're from.
Like, I said. We're just curious. Find out where we get people. And uh.
How they enjoy it! So.
Uh but once again. Thank you all very much for coming anybody else have any closing thoughts. Good night. If not, we'll turn off the recorder.
Okay, this is the bookend uh for the recording. This is Wednesday, July the 10.th
2,024. This was the monthly.
Uh St. Louis uh.
St. Louis Linux Unix. Users group meeting.
Uh slug.
Uh, you can go to.org uh for our main website. And uh, that'll lead you to the archives and maybe some other information.
Um. There's also the zoom.org slash calendar where we record uh.
All kinds of meetings that are held either here in town or.
Around the world.
So what?
Ah, let's see, our next meeting is next Thursday.
It's Craig Buch, frequent speaker of ours. He's gonna do a talk on uh.
Architecture, big and small, comparing uh our computer architecture.
Evolved to emulate a building architecture.
Should be an interesting talk.
And.
With that once again. Big thanks to Lee, Lambert and Grant. Uh, Taylor, who did a wonderful job putting things together tonight.
Thank you all, and good evening.